dickiegera Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 A long time partner of mine, no longer a favorite, told me last nite that since I pulled the 2nd card from the end I must have 1 lower [i played the 3 and the 2 was in the dummy]. I told her that looking where a card is pulled even from partner hand is cheating.She it was my fault because I take too long to play my cards. I tried to find where in the rules it says that you can't look to see where a card is pulled from and I couldn't Which LAW prohibits this? I want to point it out to her. Thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 It is information from other than the bids made, one's own hand, and the cards played. Since a player is not supposed to use extraneous information, seeking it just becomes obviously improper. I am sure someone will jump on this with the situation where we accidentally see cards in an opponent's hand. But we don't get to seek that either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Law 74C5: The following are examples of violations of procedure…Looking intently at any other player during the auction and play or at another player’s hand as for the purpose of seeing his cards or of observing the place from which he draws a card (but it is appropriate to act on information acquired by unintentionally seeing an opponent’s card*). * See Law 73D2 when a player may have shown his cards intentionally.Law 73D2: A player may not attempt to mislead an opponent by means of a remark or a gesture, by the haste or hesitancy of a call or play (as in hesitating before playing a singleton), the manner in which a call or play is made or by any purposeful deviation from correct procedure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 A long time partner of mine, no longer a favoriteI think you should make that "no longer a partner". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Isn't this called 'slotting'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 There is so much UI available from partner and opps by way of pulling cards, mannerisms, facial expressions, comments, other audible sounds (!), observing which suit partner is looking at in dummy... I try to avoid UI by not looking above table/waist height during the play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Maybe we should all play with our eyes closed. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Isn't this called 'slotting'? I have heard the term "slot count" used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunnyGo Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I have heard the term "slot count" used. Also called 'Clocking' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh51 Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 I try to avoid UI by not looking above table/waist height during the play.Being a healthy red-blooded male, there are some opponents of the female persuasion that cause me to look about waist height. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted June 21, 2012 Report Share Posted June 21, 2012 Being a healthy red-blooded male, there are some opponents of the female persuasion that cause me to look about waist height. :DOr cause us to look intently at our own cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mycroft Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 ...and this is why, while I do sort my cards into suits, I don't sort them into ranks. I don't think I've ever caught anyone doing that - I certainly haven't caught anybody playing me for a void when I switch about half my hand around after sorting (and no, I won't tell you under what circumstances I choose to do that). But I sure know they exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 An occasional partner of mine used to look at his hand without sorting the cards into suits. He did this so that no one would be able to tell anything about his hand based on the position of a played card in his hand. He gave this up after a while after a few revokes and an occasional spectacular unblocking play (such as playing the K from Kxxx under dummy's A from Ax). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74. To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate. To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74. To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate. To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally.This is a different question from the one we debated before. In this instance, the player is looking at the back of his partner's cards. Regardless of whether that's done intently or fleetingly, intentionally or accidentally, the information obtained is unauthorised. Intentionally obtaining this information may or may not be legal, but using it is certainly cheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74. To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate. To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally.Intentionally: deliberately, on purpose.Intently: with earnest and eager attention. Anyone who thinks these two words mean the same thing is, sadly, wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 This is a different question from the one we debated before. In this instance, the player is looking at the back of his partner's cards. Regardless of whether that's done intently or fleetingly, intentionally or accidentally, the information obtained is unauthorised. Intentionally obtaining this information may or may not be legal, but using it is certainly cheating.Agree, clear cheating, this player must be told so very clearly. There is so much UI available from partner and opps by way of pulling cards, mannerisms, facial expressions, comments, other audible sounds (!), observing which suit partner is looking at in dummy... I try to avoid UI by not looking above table/waist height during the play.Good intention, but you will lose much authorized and useful information from opponents mannerisms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 edit:I try to avoid UI by not looking at partner above table/waist height during the play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billw55 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 edit:I try to avoid UI by not looking at partner above table/waist height during the play.Aha that makes more sense. Regarding ops (or partner, I suppose) looking at where cards are pulled from: this can be defended against with certain sorting methods as noted by others. I have read that some strong players (including Hamman) do not sort their hand at all. I might actually try that if using four color cards, which would make it much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted June 25, 2012 Report Share Posted June 25, 2012 The problem, as has been debated before, is the meaning of the phrase 'looking intently' in law 74. To people who don't speak English in a perverse manner it means to stare at someone for a period of time. A quick glance at your opp for whatever purpose would therefore be legitimate. To people who have an agenda to push on the matter it means to look at someone intentionally. I would have thought the natural meaning was to look for some purpose. The length of time being irrelevant. If you look for the purpose of deducing information from where they play their card then that is "looking intently". As such it would be covered by the law. The agenda I push is fair play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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