stamina problem

[Mbodell]

I suspect bad results have something to do with this, and also the fact we never play more than 28 boards a day in Spain (normally 24) is probably a bad factor on my side. But there is nothing I can do about these 2.

 

How does this work? I agree with Justin that it is obvious that this is the problem, and I'm not sure if playing online works to solve it (it is different, and may or may not build up the bridge stamina the same way).

 

But I'm just curious, how do Spanish bridge tournaments work? Do they only play 24 (or 28) boards even on the weekend? Is that two sessions a day of 12 boards?

 

In the US people play 24-28 boards a session, and then there is nearly always 2 sessions a day near me for normal club games and sectionals (the smaller level of tournaments). Regional events usually have 3 sessions a day, and nationals have 3 full sessions, plus the zip KO for 4 sessions a day. 100 boards a day for 10 days if you want at a US Nationals (some days maybe only ~85 if you lose early in the zips)! Most people only play 2 sessions, but you can play more.

 

But only 24 hands a day seems like such a small amount.

[Fluffy]

I am not trying to be hard on you, or try to imply something bad. I just dont want you to waste your energy for fixing something that may not actually be the problem or main problem. Due to your age and location in the world, your experience, your card play your logic still needs a lot of work to be done imo.

 

Thanx, playing more regularilly against tough oppposition would also help me surelly because experience helps to discard posibilities and saves energy. I made mistakes trying to play fast for not giving away info for example. But playing my best wouldn't make us reach next stage lol, not even close.

 

But in less than 2 months we play in Olympiads, and our team who finished 5th in the groups 4 years ago has improved from 5 players to 6 players, this means only 1 system to remember, and rest 1/3 matches instead of 1/5, so I expect that we play a bit better than before. I also started the tournament in China exausted after 2 days in bed-toilet for eating the wrong water.

 

But my main problem really is that at the end I was unable to concentrate, you really know the difference when you defend and know where every card lies, then you need to stop and think to count every card, and in the end you just play intuitive because you can't count.

 

 

I would love to play on nationals, in fact for the last 2 years we have made plans to go, but one of the team is scared of playing BAM with no experience in the matter, then summer collides with Dauville festival and so on, in the end we never get it to work, maybe I should forget about my team, find some teammates online and go with my partner. In fact I even tried this once.

 

 

Lille starts August 8th, and most of my students are on vacations on July after the Biarritz tournament. This means I have a lot of spare time to train. Go to the gym, walk and play a lot of boards a day seems to be the recomendation. And I will try to do it.

 

During tournaments I drink a lot of cocacola (half a litre per 20 board match). Maye too much because at some point my performance drops as mentioned before. Maybe I should drink less, or use it only during second match of the day. (help on this point wanted)

 

 

I still think health is an issue, because I still remember my best tournament ever came in NEC cup 3 years ago after I spent the week before the tournament skiing in switzerland as much as I could (and I really made my money be worth it there)

 

 

EDIT: I also remember the 2008 NEC cup I started the tournament playing awful. I recovered in the mid swiss after a really hopeless play, I punched a wall with my fist in rage and ended playing great, wich led to us qualifying and finishing second, that was a swiss, and saving energies worked wonders, I even had a star moment beating the dutch team who didn't qualify in the end after making 7♥ were at the other table went down on this board http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/23714-are-you-a-man-or-what/page__p__255380__fromsearch__1?do=findComment&comment=255380

 

So administrating my energies might be also worth something. Obviously on a swiss qualifier you want to play your best in the end, but on round robin I can perhaps do something better as well.

[Fluffy]

But I'm just curious, how do Spanish bridge tournaments work? Do they only play 24 (or 28) boards even on the weekend? Is that two sessions a day of 12 boards?

 

 

one session a day, of 24-26-28 boards (normally 26 in 3 seesion tournaments, 28 in 2 day). There is no tournament with more than 1 session a day except for the team championships (8 qualifiers and 1 final event with the 8 qualified) and even on those, there is only 64/80 boards on saturday but a lot less the other days. Bridge is social thing here. People travel to tournaments to do tourism, play golf, meet friends, etc, etc, playing bridge its a secondary thing they do from 18:00 to 21:30.

[Cthulhu D]

I still think health is an issue, because I still remember my best tournament ever came in NEC cup 3 years ago after I spent the week before the tournament skiing in switzerland as much as I could (and I really made my money be worth it there)

 

It's been proven that fitness increases your mental acuity, alertness and memory, particularly in endurance situations. Given that these are skills critical for bridge, I think it is unquestionable that fitness will help. Losing 10 kg and improving your aerobic fitness is always going to improve your performance significantly.

[JLOGIC]

It's been proven that fitness increases your mental acuity, alertness and memory, particularly in endurance situations. Given that these are skills critical for bridge, I think it is unquestionable that fitness will help. Losing 10 kg and improving your aerobic fitness is always going to improve your performance significantly.

 

Imagine how good Meckstroth and Fantoni and Helgemo and Hamman could REALLY be!

[gnasher]

Find another pair to make your team up to eight, and have a 60-board practice game, rotating the pairs so that you play with everyone as teammates. Put some money on it, with the awards on a per-IMP basis, so that everyone takes every board seriously.

[Fluffy]

Find another pair to make your team up to eight, and have a 60-board practice game, rotating the pairs so that you play with everyone as teammates. Put some money on it, with the awards on a per-IMP basis, so that everyone takes every board seriously.

 

I though of something like this, but finding the time would be really tough for 4 pairs, maybe 2 pair game against BBO field is possible though. A lot random, but evens in the long long run.

 

EDIT: Now I think of it, we shoudl switch positions at half time, regular pairs against randoms will tend to sit NS, so the field is umbalanced towards NS

 

If it wasn't that my partner is livig in Guatemala at the moment, I'd like to do this offline, some strong spannish pairs were willing to pay 400€ entry fee to play the team trials against us, so why not join our trainings with money and maybe lose a bit on average.

[rhm]

When we call something a "marathon" in England, it means we're going to play 170 boards.

And the play is world-class once the board numbers reach 3 digits?

It is of course understood that the senses of an expert in auto mode are still way above what an intermediate tournament player will ever accomplish.

Reaching the finishing line in a marathon within 3 hours is fine, doing it after 6 hours is boring.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[rhm]

A major factor is whether you are used to this sort of challenge or not.

If you were not frequently exposed to this level of competition before you have little chance of avoiding this problem.

This does not mean you should not prepare, but when you go to a competition, where you know you are an underdog, this type of failure is hard to avoid.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[the hog]

Whenever I played in the NOT I usually played all matches, even if playing in a 6 man team. If we played a really weak team partner and I wouyd drop out, but after day 2 this was usually not an option. Plenty of sleep and only a glass of wine or two at the end of the evening were important. Confidence is also important, When playing Balicki, for example, we looked forward to this rather than feeling trepidation. It also helps if you play a system you know perfectly and know that neither you nor partner will forget it and make mistakes. This last point cannot be underestimated. I well remember a relay auction involving a double reverse relay against the Poles. They were convinced we had got it wrong - we hadn't - and the whole mood at the table changed after this auction when they realised we knew what we were doing.

Seriously, if you KNOW pd has got it right and he is equally sure YOU have, this helps a lot. I truly cannot remember the last relay mistake I have made. This involves a LT of bidding practice. we did at least 8-10 hours a week before events like the NOT.

[the hog]

Imagine how good Meckstroth and Fantoni and Helgemo and Hamman could REALLY be!

 

 

roflmao!!!!!!!

[gnasher]

And the play is world-class once the board numbers reach 3 digits?

No, not at all. The standard of play in the Young Chelsea Marathon is fairly poor by around 4am. I wasn't suggesting this as training method, just making an irrelevant comment on how the word "marathon" is used in different places.

[bluecalm]

I share JL sentiment. I played chess at competitive level as a junior and while coaches liked to talk about regular exercises, getting sleep and good diet the people who delivered at the end of the day were the one who played a lot of chess and for a long time, often being overweight, habitual drinkers and partying to late night/early morning.

 

There is hope though, the top spot in chess was occupied by someone who took psychical training very seriously (Kasparov) for about 20 years and most top 10 players these days are quite fit.

Chess is different than bridge though. In chess you need to concentrate for much longer and don't have many breaks while in bridge you have a lot of long breaks and short moments when concentration is needed while the whole thing lasts longer. So I guess stamina needed for bridge is of different kind (more similar to long blitz chess tournament)

[neilkaz]

one session a day, of 24-26-28 boards (normally 26 in 3 seesion tournaments, 28 in 2 day). There is no tournament with more than 1 session a day except for the team championships (8 qualifiers and 1 final event with the 8 qualified) and even on those, there is only 64/80 boards on saturday but a lot less the other days. Bridge is social thing here. People travel to tournaments to do tourism, play golf, meet friends, etc, etc, playing bridge its a secondary thing they do from 18:00 to 21:30.

Things may be different in Madrid than they are in Chicago, but both are big cities and I'd expect lots of bridge in Madrid. I realize that there are cultural differences and when you're having dinner in Madrid I'm likely getting ready for bed. But anyhow, aren't there day games, at least on Saturdays? Couldn't you go to one club to play a day game, and then to another to play the evening game? That should give you about 50 boards/day. If not, then play 20 or 30 boards online vs good competition and then go to the club for the evening game sometimes.

 

.. neilkaz ..

[jallerton]

one session a day, of 24-26-28 boards (normally 26 in 3 seesion tournaments, 28 in 2 day). There is no tournament with more than 1 session a day except for the team championships (8 qualifiers and 1 final event with the 8 qualified) and even on those, there is only 64/80 boards on saturday but a lot less the other days. Bridge is social thing here. People travel to tournaments to do tourism, play golf, meet friends, etc, etc, playing bridge its a secondary thing they do from 18:00 to 21:30.

 

Do you have many national tournaments in which people from all parts of the country travel to participate? Spain is not a small country, so travelling from one end to the other is a long way to go to play just one session per day. It would certainly be helpful to the national team if Spanish tournaments were to change their format to 2(+) sessions per day.

 

Perhaps you need to play in more foreign tournaments, but you don't necessarily have to go all the way to North America; there are plenty of decent standard tournaments in Europe.

 

Playing lots of boards on BBO might help the auto-pilot, but many people don't concentrate at the same level when playing online, so it may not be the best way of practising. If you do use BBO, play against people you know to be decent partnerships.

 

The slightly unusual thing about the European Championships is that each set is of 20 boards. With screens, that is 2 hours and 50 minutes without a break. It's definitely worth replicating this format in practice matches, so that you can learn to concentrate as well on board 20 as you can on board 2.

[32519]

Off topic but still an interesting read: Mind Games.

[Cthulhu D]

Imagine how good Meckstroth and Fantoni and Helgemo and Hamman could REALLY be!

 

I know this is a joke, but to tackle it seriously, I would bet money that over 192 boards a team of 4 bob hamman's now vs 4x Bob hamman's brain in a marathon runners body the second team would win. However it's obvious that in Bridge the luck and skill factors outweigh the fitness factors considerably.

 

But if you're just looking at yourself and your own skill, and the specific problem is you're losing concentration in long matches, and we know that fitness improves concentration and alertness I think hitting the gym is hardly unreasonable. Also, I don't think the two activities substitute for each other (if you're hitting the gym are you playing less bridge? Doesn't seem likely), so you may as well do both.

 

I personally know it makes a massive difference to both how fast and how accurately I can do complex analysis when tired vs fresh and I get tired faster when less fit. But hey, I'm not the first one to suggest losing weight makes you better at bridge: Didn't Paul Solway and Bob Hamman go to a weight loss clinic in the run up to a Bermuda bowl to improve their performance? You'd probably have better access to their view on how that worked out than I do.

[Phil]

I think what Justin is saying is that if you have to choose between the gym and logging a LOT of hands day in and day out, play bridge.

 

I do not think he is implying that being in good shape is unimportant.

 

If you compare day 1 to day 6 of most tournaments, in my opinion, there is a big difference in the quality of play, but its universal, and even those that seem like they are in good shape are dropping tricks.

[bluecalm]

But how do you know that it's not actually better to be fat ?

Maybe fat helps your concentration or at least bridge specific concentration ?

I mean, you are stacking unproved common wisdom (being in shape helps) against hard empirical evidence:

 

http://www.federbridge.it/campionati/2009/CPCCLBSG/Galleria/2/15Fulvio%20Fantoni.jpg

http://www.acbl.org/nabc/2008/03/nabc_highlights-blue_ribbon_final_eric_rodwell&_jeff_meckstroth.jpg

http://www.bridgetopics.com/sites/default/files/images/_mg_4375.preview.jpg

http://www.bcstar.nl/images/geir.jpg

 

:)

[neilkaz]

I share JL sentiment. I played chess at competitive level as a junior and while coaches liked to talk about regular exercises, getting sleep and good diet the people who delivered at the end of the day were the one who played a lot of chess and for a long time, often being overweight, habitual drinkers and partying to late night/early morning.

 

There is hope though, the top spot in chess was occupied by someone who took psychical training very seriously (Kasparov) for about 20 years and most top 10 players these days are quite fit.

Chess is different than bridge though. In chess you need to concentrate for much longer and don't have many breaks while in bridge you have a lot of long breaks and short moments when concentration is needed while the whole thing lasts longer. So I guess stamina needed for bridge is of different kind (more similar to long blitz chess tournament)

 

Yes, chess, which I played at the expert level when I was younger requires more long term concentration with no breaks than does bridge or backgammon (my real game). Bobby Fischer also took physical training seriously. A few years ago, before he retired, I spent a few minutes at dinner with Kasparov after his Simul at the CBOE where I trade, and it was quite clear that he took very good care of his body and mind.

 

In BG at the top world class level, much is nearly automatic, until some situation comes up where you're not sure and you have to think since thinking may help you get it right. We play a lot of BG on Saturday's in typical US events, often starting around noon and if you're still alive in the event you may be playing til 1 AM and then have to play again at 10 AM.

There are side events on Friday, and while these are single elim, you may have a conflict and have more matches to play Sunday if you're still alive in then as well. ie..this can be almost constant BG on short sleep except for the dinner break.

 

I have considerably less stamina than I did 20 or 30 years ago and I suspect that if I were in better shape, I'd probably be less tired and over the past couple years would have made a few less errors and been better able to handle the stress of long periods of bad luck during game after game in BG matches.

 

Some of what I've learned is to try to conserve energy and some of this may be applicable to bridge.

 

I'll talk about some of that in a later post (Have to leave for local regional bridge T soon) but will say that what Ron said about knowing the system 100% cold and being confident that PD also knows it 100% is certainly helpful from my past bridge experiences. This saves energy and stress since neither player is wondering what "this then that bid" bid means.

[Phil]

But how do you know that it's not actually better to be fat ?

Maybe fat helps your concentration or at least bridge specific concentration ?

I mean, you are stacking unproved common wisdom (being in shape helps) against hard empirical evidence:

 

http://www.federbridge.it/campionati/2009/CPCCLBSG/Galleria/2/15Fulvio%20Fantoni.jpg

http://www.acbl.org/nabc/2008/03/nabc_highlights-blue_ribbon_final_eric_rodwell&_jeff_meckstroth.jpg

http://www.bridgetopics.com/sites/default/files/images/_mg_4375.preview.jpg

http://www.bcstar.nl/images/geir.jpg

 

:)

 

OK, Levin, Cohen, Hampson, Greco, Robson, bla bla

 

can't forget seksi Phil of course. :P

[Siegmund]

If you compare day 1 to day 6 of most tournaments, in my opinion, there is a big difference in the quality of play, but its universal, and even those that seem like they are in good shape are dropping tricks.

 

I don't know if I am typical... but for me this is not how I feel about it. Under normal circumstances I get to play a few sessions of bridge here and there, squeezed around work and other commitments, and don't play enough to keep sharp - and especially if I play a lot online and not much live, I forget how to tune out distractions around me. A week-long tournament is a rare opportunity to practice bridge daily. I am playing a lot better on Thurs/Fri/Sat of a typical regional than on Mon/Tue/Wed. I always try to make a point of arriving the day before if I can so I am well rested - when I was younger there were times I flew to a regional on a redeye Sun night / mon morning, had a board meeting all day Monday, and then had to play a KO Mon night and three sessions Tuesday. Even my 25-year-old self was not equal to THAT. (I also gave up the morning continuous pairs even when I had free play coupons for it, to the benefit of my main-event results. I don't know how much of it was actually a stamina issue, vs. the event schedule not agreeing with my sleep pattern: I quite enjoy 72-board bridge "dinners" that start at noon and run straight through to 10 or 11 at night with an hour for dinner about 2/3 way through.)

 

But if there is one thing I could do differently to prepare for a regional than I do now -- it would be to play live bridge twice a day starting the Saturday before, instead of Monday night.

 

Sunday of course is an exception. Getting up early Sunday after having been up late every night all week is a killer. Might as well just go home. If THAT's which "day 6" you meant, well, yeah.

[Tataie]

Pussies.

Cardio will get better and even if you ll blow eventually, you are going to feel better.

<_<

[Finch]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but a few things to add:

 

If you are used to playing no more than 28 boards a day that I agree it's blindingly obvious you will struggle on boards 29-onwards. When I was at university, the uni club played in the local inter-county league, team of 8, A B and C teams, 32 board matches. The A team were mainly keen juniors and had experience of longer matches, but the B and C teams every single match their results were ALWAYS much much worse on boards 25-32. They were used to a 24-board evening duplicate and simply didn't have the practice at playing for longer.

 

The bad news IMO is that playing a lot of boards online, or multiple sessions a day, will help, but it won't help that much for something like the Europeans. As Jallerton says, a 20-board set with screens is 20 hours 50 minutes with no break. That's totally different from a 3-hour pairs duplicate. Many English events are 40-50 boards a day for two days at the weekend, and getting used to that is a big improvement over only playing 28-boards, but I can happily play a weekend like that without a worry and I'm still exhausted after 2 days of 2x20 trials matches.

 

The English trials are the same format as the Europeans, except over 3 weekends, i.e. 3x20 board sessions a day with screens. It would seem a good idea to suggest that the Spanish trials (do you have trials?) are the same.

 

On the getting fit side of things, saying "here are some unfit overweight people who are gods at bridge, therefore being fit is irrelevant" is like saying "here is a healthy 90-year-old who has smoked 50-a-day for 50 years, therefore smoking is not bad for you". I sleep better and play better when I get a reasonable amount of exercise. Also, of course, being both fit and not overweight is good for you and will extend your lifespan, apart from what it may do for your bridge ability.

 

 

p.s. my sources tell me that both Helgemo & Fantoni have recently been on a diet...

[mfa1010]

... and Alfredo Versace has been spotted inside a gym. (Actually doing work-out ;))

 

Interesting thread. I think not only the # of boards is important but also the fact that the opposition is tough all the way. Being able to play 60 boards against blue hair is not the same as being able to play 60 boars against national teams. Or 40 or whatever number. Takes practice.

 

I don't think healthy food is so important during the relatively short time of the tournament. Radically changing ones eating habbits might be however. I tend to have a blood sugar problem and I try to be especially careful about my breakfast. Switching from my usual dark rye bread to bacon & egg & sausages etc. will really destroy me for instance. :)

 

And then there is the alcohol issue. Great to get a pint in the bar after the play, love it. But worse for the stamina the next day and in the long run than what I am usually able to admit.