Opening Bid vs Overcaller's Bid

[therealgdg]

Hi all,

 

Need a clairification on the interpretation of an Overcaller's Bid.

 

Let's assume E-W play such that and Opening Bid of 2C is a strong hand (22+ pts) or 2H is played as a weak 2.

 

Also assume that N deals and opens 1S. E (Responder) responds with 2C or 2H. Should E's bid be interpreted as strong/weak or as a "natural" bid. I recognize if one is playing at the table, that one may ask (in this case S may ask W what it means) but is there a general rule or interpretation?

 

Thanks!

[ArtK78]

First, if North is the opening bidder, East is not the responder. The responder would be South - North's partner. South is in a position to respond to North's opening bid. East is referred to as the overcaller or the intervenor. North South might have some other names for East, but that is not for public consumption. :)

 

East's bid is an overcall - in this case, a simple (i.e. non-jump) overcall. Unless he is making some sort of conventional call, his bid is natural and limited. Over North's 1♠ opening bid, a bid of 2♣ or 2♥ (or, for that matter, 2♦) by East would show a good suit (at least 5 cards in length, typically headed by at least 2 of the top three honors). The point count for a 2 level overcall is typically between 10 and 17 HCP, inclusive.

 

Note that after North opens 1♠, any suit bid by East must be at the two level. That is not true for the opening bidder. He has a choice of bidding any suit at the one level. So, when the opening bidder chooses to open the bidding at the 2 level, it means something different than if he bid at the one level. In the case of 2♣, it is a conventional call meaning that he has a very strong hand and demands that his partner does not pass. In the case of 2 of another suit (unless the partnership has a different agreement) it shows a weak hand - less than an opening bid - but a good suit typically 6 cards in length.

[nigel_k]

Agreements such as strong 2♣ or weak two bids are for opening bids. These only apply when the opponents have not bid yet (but they may have passed).

 

After they open 1♠, your 2♣, 2♦ or 2♥ bid is an overcall (not an opening bid) and is completely natural, i.e. 2♣ would show clubs. There is no rule about the exact requirements but it is more about playing strength than high card points, and also depends on vulnerability.

[therealgdg]

Thanks!

[mikl_plkcc]

One more thing to remind:

 

If the overcall is a jump, it is usually treated as an opening:

 

(1♥) - 2♠ = 2♠ opening (except that there may be a ♥ void in the overcall but not in the opening)

[Zelandakh]

If the overcall is a jump, it is usually treated as an opening:

This is completely wrong and a dangerous thing to say to a beginner. A jump overcall is what you have agreed it to be. In several places in the world this is a weak hand. Some areas treat such a bid differently, especially when vulnerable. Similarly for a 2♠ opening. This is most likely to be a classical "Weak 2" but in some areas it is very common to play it differently. For example, most beginners in England still learn "Strong 2s". In this case their 2♠ opening and 2♠ jump overcalls will not be equivalent.

 

In short, treat opening bids as completely separate from overcalls. The situations are different and so the agreements need to be different. The system when THEY open is therefore something that needs to be learned in addition to the system when WE open.

[blackshoe]

It's also worth pointing out, I think, that if you look at two different system cards, frequently the 'systems when we open' will be quite different (Precision vs. Standard American, say) while the 'systems when they open' are very similar.

[isityou]

Experts, please correct me if I am wrong.

 

Example: First bid, opener, my RHO bids 1♠, I overcall with a 5-card suit, point range (can vary, partnership agreement) 8-15 points.

If I hold a stronger hand, 16+ points, I use a T/O double and force pard to bid, then show my 5-card suit.

[Stephen Tu]

Example: First bid, opener, my RHO bids 1♠, I overcall with a 5-card suit, point range (can vary, partnership agreement) 8-15 points.

Overcalling at the 2 level requires a stronger hand than overcalling at the 1 level. You are going for more tricks, it's easier for the opps to penalize you because both opener's hand is better defined and you are a level higher. Minimum for 2 level call is more like 10 pts. But it's kind of a sliding scale; the better your suit is (extra length, solidity), the worse your overall hand can be; with worse suits you want stronger hands, better shape. It's a reward vs. risk judgment thing that has to be developed from experience, you are weighing the upside of winning the contract and making (especially when your side can bid a game), or pushing the opps higher where they can be set, vs. various bad things that can happen (pass out, down several vul, p-p-x-all pass, x all pass).

 

If I hold a stronger hand, 16+ points, I use a T/O double and force pard to bid, then show my 5-card suit.

It's more like 18+ points, some like even stronger. It used to be weaker many decades ago, but people have found that in today's game where opponents will bid a lot with fits + shape not having a lot of HCP, it's a bad situation to have the opps jump raise and you haven't shown your suit yet, and partner assuming you have support for other suits. Better to show your suit even when fairly strong.

[Vampyr]

It's more like 18+ points, some like even stronger. It used to be weaker many decades ago, but people have found that in today's game where opponents will bid a lot with fits + shape not having a lot of HCP, it's a bad situation to have the opps jump raise and you haven't shown your suit yet, and partner assuming you have support for other suits. Better to show your suit even when fairly strong.

 

Also you will not often want to double-then-bid with only a 5-card suit, unless both the suit and the hand are exceptional. You can overcall and then double back in to show extra values instead.