3rd/5th or 3rd/low?

[jillybean]

nigel_k was responding to the OP which explicitly said that the suit hadn't been bid.

 

I'm the same as JLOGIC, I always play 3rd/low (except with gnasher!) and find this normal.

It helps to have good agreements about when you are going to come out with a lead of xxx in the first place, it's not exactly my first choice of lead.

I was happy to see this post in the A/E section. People are always telling me that they play 3rd/5th leads (3rd from 3or4, 5th from 5 or more) only for me to find out that they are playing 3rd from even/low from odd.

 

Why do most players call it all 3rd/5th?

[JLOGIC]

I think it was commonly called 3/5th because it actually was, then some bright person realized 5th from 6 does not make much sense so they played 3/5th and led 3rd from 6th but the name 3/5th stuck. Many people still do lead 5th from 6 though not that many experts. 3rd and low is of course a more accurate/correct way of saying it, but enough people say 3/5th still that I always ask what they lead from 6 if it becomes relevant.

[jillybean]

Thanks, it is often new partners who say they play "3rd/5th" so I have learned that I should always ask. :)

 

The acbl CC could be modified to make it clearer, everyone just checks 3rd/5th

[JLOGIC]

 

The acbl CC could be modified to make it clearer, everyone just checks 3rd/5th

 

Correct and good point, this is likely why many american players make this error. They do not even have a spot for what you lead from 6 so it is impossible to clarify. The WBF card is about 1000x better for leads and carding, albeit a complete pain in the ass to fill out for bidding and probably too detailed on that end.

[nigel_k]

I actually do lead 5th from a six card suit. I agree 3rd is better but in New Zealand nobody does that and I've chosen to fight other battles rather than try to convince people to change.

[JLOGIC]

Heh, I often (usually) say 3/5th to begin with against weaker opps since 3rd and low confuses them as theyve never heard of it but they've heard of 3/5th. Then I'll say from 6 we lead 3rd. That seems to work out better.

 

Against good players I will often say 3/5th out of habit then correct myself to 3rd and low. It is a bad habit :(

[Mbodell]

I assume when a decent or better player says 3/5th that they mean 3rd and low. If I really need to know, I might ask more questions.

 

It probably doesn't hurt to ask new partners when you have time if they say let's play 3/5. To me it is sort of like I assume when people agree to play 1430, they probably know to have follow ups which include the Q asks over 5m and specific K ask over all, but I'll often double check just to be sure.

[MickyB]

I was under the impression that 3rd/5th was the original name for third from even, low from odd. Many, not unreasonably, misunderstood the concept, thus creating a new method; to distinguish the two, some of those playing the original method adopted the name "3rd/low".

 

No idea if there's any truth to this.

[han]

In the Netherlands almost everybody misunderstands the concept. Even worse, it is often called 1/3/5, and even pretty good players might lead the first, the third or the fifth from xxxxx depending on what they feel like.

[jillybean]

What is 1/3/5?

 

Is this low from odd, telling partner you have 1, 3, 5..7..9 ?

[ArtK78]

I was under the impression that 3rd/5th was the original name for third from even, low from odd. Many, not unreasonably, misunderstood the concept, thus creating a new method; to distinguish the two, some of those playing the original method adopted the name "3rd/low".

 

No idea if there's any truth to this.

 

I don't know about the original name idea, but it is true that the method is 3rd from even, low from odd. So you lead 3rd best from 3, 4, 6 and 8, but lowest from 3, 5, 7 and 9.

 

I can remember leading 7th best once or twice, but I can't remember ever leading 3rd from 8 or 9th best ever.

 

As for your choice in leading from a singleton, I leave that to your judgment.

[jillybean]

http://www.bridgehands.com/T/Third_And_Fifth_Leads.htm

 

Third and Fifth - A lead convention where the opening lead is either the third or fifth card down from the top card held by the opener (top of sequence leads take precedence). Two methods are in use:

 

 

Classic:

Opener leads the third highest card when holding 3 or 4 cards in a suit, while leading the fifth card when holding 5 or more.

 

Modern:

Opener leads the third highest card when holding an even number of cards, and the lowest from an odd number. This is the prime feature of the Journalist Lead system.

[ArtK78]

http://www.bridgehands.com/T/Third_And_Fifth_Leads.htm

The so called "Classic" method is clearly wrong, as partner will never be able to distinguish between a lead from a 5 card suit and a 6 card suit if you lead 5th best from both holdings.

 

One of the advantages of 3rd and lowest is the ability to distinguish between 4, 5 and 6 card holdings. Usually, partner will be able to work out whether the 3rd best lead comes from 4 or 6. Trying to work out whether the 5th best lead comes from 5 or 6 is much more difficult.

[wyman]

In practice, the two methods are the same, as the number of times that a player would lead 7th or 9th best is extremely small.

 

But the fact is that on those rare occasions where you do have a 7 card (or 9 card) suit to lead from and you are leading a spot card, it is possible that you will mislead partner if you lead 5th best (especially if you have not bid the suit).

 

Don't ask me to provide an example.

 

The methods JB posted differ when leading from a 6-bagger as well, and that is somewhat important to get right.

[ArtK78]

The methods JB posted differ when leading from a 6-bagger as well, and that is somewhat important to get right.

Sorry - you caught me in mid-edit. I was changing my post when you posted.

[Phil]

Heh, I often (usually) say 3/5th to begin with against weaker opps since 3rd and low confuses them as theyve never heard of it but they've heard of 3/5th. Then I'll say from 6 we lead 3rd. That seems to work out better.

 

Against good players I will often say 3/5th out of habit then correct myself to 3rd and low. It is a bad habit :(

 

This is one area where I can be a little pedantic. I always say "3rd best from an even number, lowest from an odd number".

 

One wiseguy once asked me how I can lead 3rd best from a doubleton.

[gnasher]

In the Netherlands almost everybody misunderstands the concept. Even worse, it is often called 1/3/5, and even pretty good players might lead the first, the third or the fifth from xxxxx depending on what they feel like.

Or maybe they understand the concept perfectly, but it's a different concept?

[JLOGIC]

What is 1/3/5?

 

Is this low from odd, telling partner you have 1, 3, 5..7..9 ?

 

1 just means top of a doubleton

[JLOGIC]

While we're on the subject, we always joke with the Swedes about Swedish 3/5th, because almost all of them (including the top players) seem to include QT9 and KT9 in 3/5th, so thy will lead the 9 if 3/5th has been agreed. Not that leading the 9 is a bad agreement from those holdings.

[Stephen Tu]

The so called "Classic" method is clearly wrong, as partner will never be able to distinguish between a lead from a 5 card suit and a 6 card suit if you lead 5th best from both holdings.

 

I think 3rd best from 6 is clearly better than 5th best from 6.

 

But I wonder if lowest card from 7 is really better than 5th best. Perhaps from 7 5th best is fine, and 7th should be reserved for some suit preference situation where you are looking for partner to win his ace and give you say a club ruff. Presumably 7 cd suits get mentioned in most auctions, and partner can usu work out 5 from 7?

[Finch]

While we're on the subject, we always joke with the Swedes about Swedish 3/5th, because almost all of them (including the top players) seem to include QT9 and KT9 in 3/5th, so thy will lead the 9 if 3/5th has been agreed. Not that leading the 9 is a bad agreement from those holdings.

 

This is where the WBF card is handy to be clear about opening leads, because we also might* lead the 9 from QT9(x/xxx)/KT9(x/xxx) or the 10 fro KJ10(x/xxx).

*Any time we've bid and raised the suit, and also quite often from a 6-card suit when partner can tell we are leading from length.

 

We also would frequently lead 5th highest from e.g. Q109xx. My partner led 5th highest from this holding against Zia in the Gold Cup semi-finals against a slam (it saved an overtrick) and Zia said he'd never seen a lead like that before, somewhat to our surprise.

[icer]

I think 3rd best from 6 is clearly better than 5th best from 6.

 

But I wonder if lowest card from 7 is really better than 5th best. Perhaps from 7 5th best is fine, and 7th should be reserved for some suit preference situation where you are looking for partner to win his ace and give you say a club ruff. Presumably 7 cd suits get mentioned in most auctions, and partner can usu work out 5 from 7?

 

I think this suit-preference possibility makes 3/5 a better rule than 3/low,

these long suits often are mentioned in auctions and the "low suit pref" will

be easy to read.