NaeosPsy Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 My Swedish Club openings are :1♣ - 11-14bal or 17+unbal or 21+any1♦- 4+, unbal,11-161♥/♠ - 5+, 11-161NT - 15-18,may be 44412♣- 6+ or 5+4M, 11-162♦- three suiter with short diamonds, 11-162♥/2♠ - weak, 6+, 6-102NT - 19-20 Are the wide NT openings ok if it helps making 1♣ more resistant to preempts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 No, they are not OK. You will be way behind the field on two common auctions. The 11-14 problem you can solve by passing many 11 counts but 15-18 is not cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 No, they are not OK. You will be way behind the field on two common auctions. The 11-14 problem you can solve by passing many 11 counts but 15-18 is not cool.Any ideas how to include NT bids in bids other than 1♣, while still maintaining normal ranges and 2-way club? :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 I see the point. When gwnn and I worked on Swedish Club we had a lot of situations where not bidding implied 11-13 bal, but bidding with 17-19 bal was just a bit too much. What you need to keep in mind is that "natural" bidders have the same problem. If they open 1♣ showing 12-14 bal or 18-19 bal or 11-21 nat and it goes 1♣-(3♠)-p-(p) they will also be in a very tough spot with 18 bal. That said I would prefer to play 1NT 15-17 bal2♦ 18-19 bal2NT 20-21 bal rather than what you have above. With 4414, open 1♣ on 11-14 and 1♥ on 15-16. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Maybe Mexican 2D? We included 17-19 bal in 1C and (potentially) passed with these hands in competition sometimes. I would definitely not like opening 1H on 4414, even very rarely... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 My Swedish Club openings are :1♣ - 11-14bal or 17+unbal or 21+any1♦- 4+, unbal,11-161♥/♠ - 5+, 11-161NT - 15-18,may be 44412♣- 6+ or 5+4M, 11-162♦- three suiter with short diamonds, 11-162♥/2♠ - weak, 6+, 6-102NT - 19-20 Are the wide NT openings ok if it helps making 1♣ more resistant to preempts? Have you tallied your opening frequencies? For 100 hands, I got... 1C 481D 111H 141S 191N 82C 22D 0 Offhand it seems that the main advantage of your Swedish Club is that your 1D opening promises diamonds and an unbalanced hand. So you win with those, but notice the relative infrequency of these hands. I think these 2-way clubs place way too much pressure on your strong hands. About 48% of your openings you will have to later sort out 12-14 from these strong hands. Maybe that's why you want your 1N to include 18s....you're reacting to the problem. I see that you're trying to open balanced 11 counts, but your opening organization is such that it's difficult to handle light openings. Really, your desire to open 11s and keep your 1M to 11-15 is more reminiscent of a strong club system. Why not play strong club? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Have you tallied your opening frequencies? For 100 hands, I got... 1C 481D 111H 141S 191N 82C 22D 0 Offhand it seems that the main advantage of your Swedish Club is that your 1D opening promises diamonds and an unbalanced hand. So you win with those, but notice the relative infrequency of these hands. I think these 2-way clubs place way too much pressure on your strong hands. About 48% of your openings you will have to later sort out 12-14 from these strong hands. Maybe that's why you want your 1N to include 18s....you're reacting to the problem. I see that you're trying to open balanced 11 counts, but your opening organization is such that it's difficult to handle light openings. Really, your desire to open 11s and keep your 1M to 11-15 is more reminiscent of a strong club system. Why not play strong club? Are there any tools for calculating those frequencies? Well, I just prefer playing Swedish Club based systems, it's more fun for me, and I'm not kind of happy with Swan.I think it's not hard to sort out weak bal from strong unbal after 1♣ opening, they are pretty different.Originally I played 11-13/17+any 1 C and 14-16 NT, BTW. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 It seems like you wouldn't lose much by opening 1♣ on the three-suiters with short diamonds. These are rare hand types anyway; you can bid 1♣-1♦-1M or 1♣-1M-raise just as you would with a weak notrump (or possibly upgrade to jump-raise if you are maximum; 4441 hands play quite well opposite a fit). This frees up your 2♦ opening, which you could use to help partition the strong hands; for example: 1♣ = 11-13 balanced, or 11-16 three suited, or 17+ unbalanced, or 21+ any1♦, 1M = 11-16 natural1NT = 14-162♣ = clubs 11-16 (this can even promise six if you open 1♣ with (431)5 types including a 4M and 1♦ with 4♦-5♣)2♦ = 17-18 balanced2M = weak two2N = 19-20 balanced Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Are there any tools for calculating those frequencies? <advertisement mode on>If you know Python, you can try https://github.com/anntzer/redeal (or Thomas Andrews' Deal, if you prefer Tcl).<advertisement mode off> Otherwise BBO's hand generator will give you the frequencies as well. As an aside, in my Polish club partnership, 4414 hands are, as a rule, opened 1♣ (1N possible if in NT range and singleton A/K, as usual); they are rare enough that it isn't really a problem. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Maybe I can use 2H as three suiter instead of hearts pre-empt? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Maybe I can use 2H as three suiter instead of hearts pre-empt?You can, but is it worth it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perko90 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Maybe I can use 2H as three suiter instead of hearts pre-empt? As, long as you like the 2-way 1♣, I would definitely recommend Adam's suggestion of including 4-4-1-4 hands in 1♣. There's really no rebid problems. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Note that if you're gonna bid 2D or 2H with 4414 you can make 2C always 6+, at the cost of making 1D 4+ or 1435/4135. If you open them 1C always then I think you can also include 5C4M hands. However, in that case you will end up in some silly contracts when partner bids in competition (say he has KJxxx of spades and a queen, he will/should bid 2S over 1C-(2 any) if 1C is a weak NT, but it will be more tricky if you included some unbal C hands). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 5314 hands are opened with 2H or 2D, so are 5440 with five clubs. :) My partner suggested me to play 2D as any major 2nd level pre-empt or 17-18 bal, 2H as three suiter and 2S as some pre-empt like Spades + Minor. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 2D as weak 2 OR mexican probably doesn't work. 17-18 is not strong enough (this is not something I tried but I've just heard it discussed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 We have a problem with 1C-1D(0-6or13+)-2x It's 5+,17-20. After that, we can't think of a response scheme which could show if responder has weak or strong hand, and would allow to go to slam if strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 We didn't play two-way 1♦ but in any case I don't see why you would bid 2M with 17-20? Why not just bid 1M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 At least in a Polish club context, 2M should be 21-23 (approx) and (17)18-20 hands go into 1M (together with WNTs and 15-17 5♣4M). Over 1M it's easy: weak hands pass/bid 1♠/1N, 2m=5-11, jump to 3oM=12-16 bal, asking opener to bid 3N. If opener bids 2M then weak hands should probably go to game directly (or pass), strong hands can take it slowly (more or less anything should work). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted June 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 We didn't play two-way 1♦ but in any case I don't see why you would bid 2M with 17-20? Why not just bid 1M?We bid 3+c M as 1M with weak NT hands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 1C-1D-1H would show a WNT with better hearts than spades (or equal) and 1S a WNT with better spades than hearts? That seems way too restrictive.In reality you can bid 1M with any hand where you don't mind your partner passing, and given that he'll only pass with 0-4 (with 5+ he can bid 1N or raise you or 1S over 1H), you can definitely bid 1M (intending to rebid 2M) with 17-19(20) and 5M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 We bid 3+c M as 1M with weak NT hands.Yes, good. My question still stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NaeosPsy Posted July 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 1C-1D-1H would show a WNT with better hearts than spades (or equal) and 1S a WNT with better spades than hearts? That seems way too restrictive.In reality you can bid 1M with any hand where you don't mind your partner passing, and given that he'll only pass with 0-4 (with 5+ he can bid 1N or raise you or 1S over 1H), you can definitely bid 1M (intending to rebid 2M) with 17-19(20) and 5M. Yeah, I see the point, could actually do that. Yes, good. My question still stands. Well, we usually pass with 4 card support and even 5-7 after 1C-1D-1M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antonylee Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well, we usually pass with 4 card support and even 5-7 after 1C-1D-1M.This makes it extremely easy for the opponents to balance into the auction (after all your point range is ~11-21 at that point, who would not balance?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted July 4, 2012 Report Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well, we usually pass with 4 card support and even 5-7 after 1C-1D-1M.Well, don't do that, it's silly. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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