Bbradley62 Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Some Robot tournaments are "random hands", where hands are "dealt" randomly, and some are "best hand" where only hands in which the human player has the most (or tied for most) HCP are played. In "best hand" tournaments, is the fact that we are playing that format supposed to be treated as AI or UI? [hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M54396,~~M54394,~~M54395|st%7C%7Cmd%7C4S5H49JAD4TQC369TA%2CS49JQH357D3AC457K%2CS36KH6TD2569JKC2Q%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%206%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7C]360|270[/hv]I would always open this South hand (in first, second or third seat) playing "random hands", but I passed it in a "best hands" tournament, thinking that having the hand passed out would be an above average result for me. Am I supposed to be taking such things into account? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 It's part of the conditions of contest, I think those are AI. But since there are no TDs or adjustments in these tournaments, what difference does it make? You can do whatever you want in these tourneys. Everyone else has the same information, they can (and should) take it into account just as well, so no one gets an advantage based on UI. Are you hoping to resurrect the "Best hand tourneys aren't real bridge" discussions based on this issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo LaSota Posted June 17, 2012 Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 I really do not understand the point that you are trying to make in bringing this hand up for discussion. Is the fact that ace spades is poorly placed for your side the reason that you know that passing is the correct choice? It certainly could go against you to pass on different layouts of the other 3 hands. Besides, it appears that there are auctions where you open and likely end with a plus score. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 Are you hoping to resurrect the "Best hand tourneys aren't real bridge" discussions based on this issue?No, I just wanted to know how others treat this. If I were trying to make such a point, I would be direct about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bbradley62 Posted June 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2012 I really do not understand the point that you are trying to make in bringing this hand up for discussion. Is the fact that ace spades is poorly placed for your side the reason that you know that passing is the correct choice? It certainly could go against you to pass on different layouts of the other 3 hands. Besides, it appears that there are auctions where you open and likely end with a plus score.I certainly don't "know" that passing is the right choice. (I very carefully said "thinking that..." since it certainly doesn't seem clear.) Maybe this wasn't the best hand to illustrate my point, but it happened to be the one that came up and made me want to ask the question about how other people handle the "I know I have the best hand" information. Do you pass/open at all differently in best hand games than you do in random hand games? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 I only take "best hand" into account when playing total points games. In duplicates, I tend to bid normally. Sometimes I try varying my style in 4th seat, and it almost always goes wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordontd Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Maybe this wasn't the best hand to illustrate my point,Maybe a clearer one is when you have an 11-count and your partner opens in front of you. Now you know it's likely to be a part-score hand. Certainly you aren't going to make borderline invitations in such circumstances. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Yes I always bid differently because it's best hand. A simple one is 1C p 1H AP as an auction when partner is an unpassed hand. Or preempting with a pretty good hand when you know you don't have a game. Or opening a hand you wouldn't usually since you think it's going to get passed out. There are a million ways where this comes into play. It seems like everyone who is playing the event having AI about this makes much more sense than an unenforceable (and undocumented) rule that the information that everyone in the entire event has available to them is UI and should not be used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 How often do robot opponents call the TD and assert that the lone human at the table has used UI? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMB1 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 How often do honest players try to play by the rules even when they know opponents will not have the laws enforced? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 Yes I always bid differently because it's best hand. A simple one is 1C p 1H AP as an auction when partner is an unpassed hand. Or preempting with a pretty good hand when you know you don't have a game. Or opening a hand you wouldn't usually since you think it's going to get passed out. There are a million ways where this comes into play. It seems like everyone who is playing the event having AI about this makes much more sense than an unenforceable (and undocumented) rule that the information that everyone in the entire event has available to them is UI and should not be used.Exactly. The fact that the human player has the best hand is part of the conditions of contest, and the human player is entitled to use that information as he sees fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 How often do honest players try to play by the rules even when they know opponents will not have the laws enforced?You assume that a "robot, best hand to the human" game is bridge. It isn't. :P I agree with Justin and Art. That the human will have the best hand is in the CoC, so it cannot sensibly be UI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I never thought the conditions of contest would be considered by some to be UI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted June 19, 2012 Report Share Posted June 19, 2012 I think it's because it's so rare for the CoC to result in inferences about the hands. However, it's not unprecedented: for many years people have been hosting "goulash" tourneys. However, it's rare to award masterpoints for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 20, 2012 Report Share Posted June 20, 2012 It's technically not legal to issue masterpoints for goulash tournaments, at least in the ACBL, because such tournaments (including club games) are required to follow the laws, and under the laws, "goulash" dealing is illegal (Law 6B). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wank Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 the game you're playing is not bridge so unsurprisingly trying to apply the bridge lawbook to your game results in ridiculous rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffford76 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 It's technically not legal to issue masterpoints for goulash tournaments, at least in the ACBL, because such tournaments (including club games) are required to follow the laws, and under the laws, "goulash" dealing is illegal (Law 6B). Actually the ACBL Board of Directors voted on a proposal in Philadelphia to only award masterpoints to games that follow the laws (with an exception for teaching games), and it failed. This was part of a failed attempt to shut down the robot games. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Interesting. I guess getting people their masterpoints is more important than anything else. Please, ACBL, credit me with the points I need. No, I haven't earned them, but apparently that doesn't matter. :ph34r: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 While it's difficult to see how rewarding a learning/practising tool benefits the League, could one dare to hope that they wish to use the extra revenue to promote bridge in North America? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I think calling best-hand bridge "not bridge" is a serious exaggeration. Rubber and duplicate bridge require significantly different strategies, but we don't say that one of them is "not bridge". I think best-hand robot bridge fits within the same continuum, it's just another variation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vampyr Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I think calling best-hand bridge "not bridge" is a serious exaggeration. Rubber and duplicate bridge require significantly different strategies, but we don't say that one of them is "not bridge". I think best-hand robot bridge fits within the same continuum, it's just another variation.There's just the little matter of the Laws, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Best-hand robot bridge violates Law 8 of the laws of rubber bridge and Law 6 of both the laws of duplicate bridge and the Laws for Electronic Bridge. Further, the latter law book says The primary objective of the WBFLC in considering laws for online bridge is and must be the protection of the integrity and unity of the game. Thus, the Laws of Online Bridge should ensure that a contest determines that the winner of an online bridge contest is truly the best in bridge, and not in some other related but distinct game.It seems to me that best-hand robot bridge is "some related but distinct game". YMMV, I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo LaSota Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 While "best hand" robot bridge tournaments do not focus on all aspects of a live bridge game, I can say from experience that they are a much greater measure of skill than many live bridge games. Me and my partner, John Adams, likely played stronger on the final day of the Wernher Open Pairs than any other pair. However, we only managed a 64% and 60% in the two final sessions largely because the opponents did alot of very good things against us. As an example, the opponents bid and made 4 slams against us (one grand) and the results of these hands were completely out of our control. We scored well below average on all 4 of these boards. I checked the results from just 2 of these boards from the evening session. Against the first place pair, the opponents did not bid either of the slam. This resulted in two great scores for the winners. The additional matchpoints that they earned on these two boards was more than the difference in our final scores. Additionally, the second place pair stated in the bulletin that they had alot of luck in the event. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barmar Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Best-hand robot bridge violates Law 8 of the laws of rubber bridge and Law 6 of both the laws of duplicate bridge and the Laws for Electronic Bridge. Further, the latter law book says It seems to me that best-hand robot bridge is "some related but distinct game". YMMV, I suppose.Despite violating those laws, it seems like best-hand bridge meets the "primary objective" the WBFLC describes. The intent of the best-hand design is to make the human play more hands. How is making him dummy more going to ensure that the winner is the best in bridge? I think this is simply a case of technology getting ahead of the laws (as it often does in the real world, as well). The electronic bridge laws only take into account using the computer to mediate bidding and play, but like the regular laws it assumes that all the players are humans. I believe the primary purpose of the dealing law is to avoid bias between the players. Best-hand bridge does that, since it only biases against the robots, who aren't real players. That's not entirely true, I'll admit. Law 6 also prohibits goulash, even though all the players have equal likelihood of getting freaks. I'm not really sure WHY this prohibition is necessary, though. As long as all the contestants are aware that the hands will be freaky, isn't it just as much a contest of bridge skill? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 The last post (Edit: #23, barmar and I cross-posted) made me smile. Might I suggest that instead of a World Cup in 2014 we instead hold a FIFA Soccer tournament where instead of head-to-head matches the winner is the player/country that gets the best record against an array of computer opponents. That way, noone has to deal with opponents doing unexpectedly good things against them and the winner will be a much better indication of the real skill level of the contestants. FIFA could even update their official rankings. If it caught on the football stadiums can be converted to training centers run by FIFA, thus putting the money saved back into promoting the game. We have had this argument before. It is really simple. A game is bridge if it meets the Laws of bridge. If the Lawmakers decide that Best Hand tournaments should be classified as bridge then they should change the Laws in the next update. Up to now I have not seen this suggested in the appropriate forum but perhaps it is being put forward somewhere else. It is irrelevant whether Best Hand tournaments are more or less "skillful" than rubber bridge, teams, or any other form of bridge; or poker, canasta or skat for that matter. Bridge is defined by its Laws. Currently, Best Hand is a bridge-like game but not in fact bridge. I completely accept that that could change in the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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