JLOGIC Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 double post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Sample of results: I ask "how do you like to play 1m-(3m)?" When they say natural, I say "do you know any top american who plays it as stopper ask" Warren Spector: No,and I'm on the phone with Mike Becker and he does not eitherJoe Grue: over 1 of a minor? No haha (assume this includes Curtis Cheek)Sheri Weinstock: I do not (assume she knows what she and Fred play)John Hurd: No, but I like to play it over 1D but no one else will do it.Kevin Bathurst: I think it must be close to 100 % that do not play it as stopper askJdonn: Maybe 16 years agoShane Blanchard: I do not (assume this includes Bob Blanchard). Mike Passell: No. Bob Hamman: Not for a long timeGeoff Hampson: Bad players do Maybe a slightly biased sample since its people from my phone list, but I can't imagine it's that far off. This has been pretty enlightening and interesting, I never would have thought the top players in some other countries played stopper ask over 1C, it seems pretty insane to me though I can see it over 1D depending on the type of diamond involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aguahombre Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Geoff Hampson: Bad players doSo, I was right. It is standard. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 To clarify, I have been playing bridge for 16 years. I was trying to imply that have been playing it as natural ever since I had >0 years of experience. I am still not totally normal, I like to play any direct suit overcall of a suit with a minimum length of 4 or less as natural (perhaps excluding "5+ or 4441", never really thought about that) whereas almost everyone in the US of all skill levels play Michaels at least over 3+ openings. I don't think there is a single auction where I play the first bid by my side is a stopper ask other than (1M) 3M (which I have barely used), and I don't recall missing it at all though perhaps I don't even think about it since I am not used to having it. I know I have bid (1m) 3m natural many times, even 4m sometimes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I don't think there is a single auction where I play the first bid by my side is a stopper ask other than (1M) 3M (which I have barely used). Not (2M) 3M? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 No, I like michaels and leaping michaels together. Lower one doesn't create a force and lets you play 3NT. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 No, I like michaels and leaping michaels together. Lower one doesn't create a force and lets you play 3NT. Just curious what you do over 2S withxxAxAxAKQJxxx If you bid 3C is partner expected to bid 3NT on Kxx xxxxx xxx xx ?If you x ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Just curious what you do over 2S withxxAxAxAKQJxxx If you bid 3C is partner expected to bid 3NT on Kxx xxxxx xxx xx ?If you x ?Nope not 3C, that's an interesting suggestion though! If I was fortunate enough to hold that hand for the first time ever I would double and then cuebid if partner responded 2NT (lebensohl, as he would with that hand) or bid a forcing 4C if he responded in a suit showing values, as slam chances would be excellent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Just curious what you do over 2S withxxAxAxAKQJxxx If you bid 3C is partner expected to bid 3NT on Kxx xxxxx xxx xx ?If you x ? He would probably double and over lebensohl (or whatever) bid 3S and hope his partner with a spade stopper bid 3N. I do not understand what the point of your argument is. If you have a bid that shows a solid suit, stoppers outside, no stopper in their suit, and 9 tricks, and pick up a textbook hand for that it will probably work out well (though in your example hand, it would work out the same). He will probably do better than the people who play stopper ask when he can michaels and stop in 4 of a minor rather than bid leaping michaels (or if you would have overcalled 3H with his hand instead of bidding leaping michaels, then he will do better than you when he finds his good 5 of a minor game or 4 of a minor partial instead of playing 3H sometimes). He will also do better on slam hands over leaping michaels, since his lower limit will be much higher given that he had 2 ways to bid michaels. Over 2H-(3H) it is even better since he can also stop in 3S. All conventions have plusses and minuses, and choosing to play one over another implies that you think you gain more often than you lose by doing so. Constructing a hand where the other convention works better is pointless, I doubt jdonn thought there were never hands where not playing stopper ask will lose lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 It's funny, I wanted to limit the sarcasm but part of me wanted to ask if anyone plays a 3♠ overcall of 3♥ as a stopper ask, just in case they pick up Ax xx Ax AKQJxxx 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 He would probably double and over lebensohl (or whatever) bid 3S and hope his partner with a spade stopper bid 3N. I do not understand what the point of your argument is. If you have a bid that shows a solid suit, stoppers outside, no stopper in their suit, and 9 tricks, and pick up a textbook hand for that it will probably work out well (though in your example hand, it would work out the same). He will probably do better than the people who play stopper ask when he can michaels and stop in 4 of a minor rather than bid leaping michaels (or if you would have overcalled 3H with his hand instead of bidding leaping michaels, then he will do better than you when he finds his good 5 of a minor game or 4 of a minor partial instead of playing 3H sometimes). He will also do better on slam hands over leaping michaels, since his lower limit will be much higher given that he had 2 ways to bid michaels. Over 2H-(3H) it is even better since he can also stop in 3S. All conventions have plusses and minuses, and choosing to play one over another implies that you think you gain more often than you lose by doing so. Constructing a hand where the other convention works better is pointless, I doubt jdonn thought there were never hands where not playing stopper ask will lose lol. No argument. I was seriously curious. I actually held a similar hand, (with 7 solid Cs), over a 2H opening exactly 1 year ago in the VCC. in Melbourne. Pd had no H stopper and we ended up in 4C 1 off which was an average. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 It's funny, I wanted to limit the sarcasm but part of me wanted to ask if anyone plays a 3♠ overcall of 3♥ as a stopper ask, just in case they pick up Ax xx Ax AKQJxxx Sorry, but that is a silly comment as pd is FAR more likely to have a S stopper on this auction than a H stopper if the opps open 2H. On your posted hand I would just bid 3NT as I suspect most would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Maybe reread the post you quoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yes ok. I misinterpreted his comment.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lalldonn Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 No offense taken, even interpreted correctly it's a silly comment :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I agree that (1m) 3m is better used as natural - I just haven't got around to changing it yet. Apparently I'm not the only one: http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Bulgaria/karakolev-mihov.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Denmark/blakset-schaltzBS.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/England/patterson-crouchBS.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Germany/Gromoeller-Rehder.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Monaco/helgemo-helness.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Norway/Berg-Svendsen.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Russia/khokhlov-rudakov.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Israel/Birman-Padon.pdfhttp://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files/2012Dublin/systems/OpenTeams/Poland/balicki-zmudzinski.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 Oh yes I didn't doubt you guys who said it was standard in europe to play stopper ask. I find things like this fascinating, I'm guessing the internet will bridge these regional gaps (and conversely, pre internet, there were far more). It's not even that one must be better than the other it's just very interesting to me that something that is so standard to top american players is the opposite of standard from equally good european players. This is not an uncommon situation either. FWIW I just wanted to confirm that I was at least correct about what I viewed the normal top expert american view to me and that I wasn't incorrect about that too. It might also have to do with the factors that han and you said. I feel like there should be some reason, but maybe it's just that it doesn't matter long term. This is one reason the internet is great though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 [duplicated post] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I think "standard in Europe" would have been an overbid if we'd said that (though in fact Han and I both spoke only of our own countries). There is a reason that there are no Italian, Swedish or Dutch pairs on my list - none of them say they play the cue as a stop-ask. Also, there were several countries where the first pair I picked weren't playing it. There were also a number of pairs who were playing it only over 1♦, perhaps reflecting a regional tendency to play 4- or 5-card diamond openings. I agree about the Internet. In England especially I think it's been quite significant in changing what people play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted June 14, 2012 Report Share Posted June 14, 2012 I have been playing bridge for 40 years now, and through all that time I have played (1m) - 3m as a natural preempt. I don't recall ever seeing anyone play it any other way, but I do not play internationally and the number of times I have seen anyone else make that call is less than 10. I have made the call more than 10 times, but not a lot more. I suspect that if I were playing (1m) - 3m as a stopper ask, I would have bid it even less often than I have. So, this is not an agreement that I would lose sleep over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkham Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Perhaps in e.g. England with a history of four card majors a (1m) opening bid is likely to be a proper suit, so you don't have any use for (1m)-3m as natural, hence using it as a stopper ask. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bende Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 If (1m) - 3m is played as natural, which strength is it normally played as, preemptive or a sound overcall? Does it depend on if (1m) - 2m is played as natural or Michaels? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 Something like good preempt, with a sound overcall you just start with pass (or if playing 1m-2m nat, with 2m). Of course you can't have a terrible preempt when it's their suit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jh51 Posted June 15, 2012 Report Share Posted June 15, 2012 I think most play that "Reverse Treadwell" asking for a club stop with a long suit to run.I thought that "Reverse Treadwell" was when you were supposed to bid 3NT if I had a club stop and a long suit to run. (If I am recalling correctly the way that I heard him explain it.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkham Posted June 18, 2012 Report Share Posted June 18, 2012 Yes, I thought it was an opening 3NT that says "I have most suits stopped, pass if you have a solid eight card minor". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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