Blame It On the Rain

[daveharty]

[hv=pc=n&w=s63haq97daj986cj4&e=sakq94h53dkqt5ca5&d=s&v=n&b=15&a=p1d3c3sp4sp5cp5dp5sp6sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoints. 6S failed by a trick, 6D would have made. West's 4S bid seems a little silly, but he felt stuck; how could EW have done better?

[kenrexford]

Without analyzing the entire auction, I would just note that West made what I consider to be a recurring and annoying mistake. When accepting a slam try made by partner, it is often a good idea to do so in a way that allows partner the felxibility to place your acceptance in the right contract. This is a common example of that situation. So, IMO, West should probably have bid 6♦ instead of 6♠.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Both East and West experienced "stuckness" after North's 3C interference.

 

East's 5C went past 4NT ( RKC ) ... but he has no void ( as KenRex alluded to in another recent post : .. " going past 4NT usually indicates a void somewhere " ).

 

5H would have been a better cue than 5D

 

Then maybe 5NT ( by East ) over 5H ...or maybe 6♦ , if 5NT is too ambiguous , to ask for a choice of slams ( ♦ or ♠ ) .

[CSGibson]

Without analyzing the entire auction, I would just note that West made what I consider to be a recurring and annoying mistake. When accepting a slam try made by partner, it is often a good idea to do so in a way that allows partner the felxibility to place your acceptance in the right contract. This is a common example of that situation. So, IMO, West should probably have bid 6♦ instead of 6♠.

 

I like this. In my serious partnership, we have the agreement that a 6 level bid in a suit we've previously offered up naturally is an offer to play, which would have made a 6♦ call even clearer. I can understand not making the call, or 5N offering choices, after this start, however, if W is afraid that this would be an invitation to grand instead of a choice of slams.

[kenrexford]

I like this. In my serious partnership, we have the agreement that a 6 level bid in a suit we've previously offered up naturally is an offer to play, which would have made a 6♦ call even clearer. I can understand not making the call, or 5N offering choices, after this start, however, if W is afraid that this would be an invitation to grand instead of a choice of slams.

 

 

Another good rule -- in a preempt auction, do not make calls that amorphously invite grand slams. 6♦ as "I have something interesting in diamonds, do you want to bid a grand slam because of this new information?" is really bad stuff.

[perko90]

I have a different view than the other esteemed commenters. I have full sympathy for West's 4♠ bid; not pretty, but stuck is stuck. After that, it seems East is unnecessarily concerned about the ♥ suit. But if you give North credit for ♣KQ w/ an Unfav Vul preempt, it's hard to imagine West's hand without the ♥A or K, or more likely, 2 of the top 3. I believe the burden is fully 100% on East to offer up a choice of slams - that wonderful ♦ support was never disclosed! As such, 4NT is not the vehicle for that; and so East's 5♣ bid seems OK, as does West's 5♦. I don't like East's 5♠ bid at all. 6♦ is fully justified. How can there not be a play for slam? The ♠'s will provide pitches for whatever loser there may be. In East's mind, only the unlikely misfortune of a stiff ♥ lead to the A and a ruff or a 5-0 trump break could possibly sink the ship. The 5♠ bid also puts ptr in a bad spot. West has a great answer for the apparent ♥ concern, but that xx support makes the 6♠ raise very brave. Yes, a 6♦ bid would have been better, but East shouldn't have put that test to ptr.

[Finch]

I think East should have bid 6D over 5D. East is the one who has undisclosed 4-card diamond support; West only has AJ9xx.

 

As for the idea that going past RKCB implies a void, words (nearly!) fail me. What happened to consulting partner?

[Cyberyeti]

At IMPs I'd probably have just bid 4N over 3♣, and relied on them leading a club if there were 2 hearts off the top, at MPs is trickier, 3♠ is probably right.

 

I'd have bid 5N if playing it as pick a slam over 5♠, expressing doubt about playing in spades, partner can now hopefully see the problem, although if I have ♠Jx, 6♠ makes (although 6N also makes and scores better), so he might bid it anyway.

[Trinidad]

I think East had a variation on a common mistake in slam bidding: He focussed on controls, rather than on tricks. East should know, before bidding 3♠, that he wants to bid a slam. As perko90 says, it is very unlikely that West doesn't have a heart control.

 

So, East is only supposed to find out which slam. Therefore, he bids 3♠. After hearing 4♠ from West, he should realize that 6♦ may still be better than 6♠. (This may even be true if West has three spades.) He can just bid 6♦ over 4♠, or he can cue first and then bid 6♦. He can even just ask for keycards (for spades), because he holds the ♠K and ♦KQ. So, as long as we accept that West will have a heart control, simple RKCB will give East the answers he needs (on this hand).

 

Rik

[rogerclee]

I think it is resulting to say that EW can reach 6D at matchpoints after 1D (3C) 3S P 4S, it is just a huge position from the east hand's perspective to not play in his AKQ9x that just got raised.

 

At IMPs I agree that it would be a big mistake to not offer diamonds with the east cards.

[JLOGIC]

Kens point that wests 6S bid is awful needs to be re-emphasized. How could he not bid 5N? If partner bids something other than 6S over 5N how can that be bad after having raised on TWO SMALL so far. It is just a really bad bid to bid 6S instead of 5N.

 

I don't agree with clee, if west bids 5N over 5S it is extremely likely he has raised on a doubleton spade. There is no way east is not bidding 6D with KQTx of diamonds over 5N.

[Trinidad]

I think it is resulting to say that EW can reach 6D at matchpoints after 1D (3C) 3S P 4S, it is just a huge position from the east hand's perspective to not play in his AKQ9x that just got raised.

East didn't "get raised". West was put with his back to the wall and East should realize that. East knows (or should know) that 4♠ could be based on a small doubleton. And if West has a small doubleton, 6♦ will have a much better chance. It could even be a singleton (move a spade to the club suit) and the only thing West can do is hope that his partner has a good six or seven card suit.

 

Usually 3♠ shows a good long suit. If East has "a flexible hand" he would tend to double. Here, East doesn't need to double. The reason is that he can bid spades and can always go back to his partner's diamonds. And, in principle, he should show such a hand to partner by bidding spades first and then bidding diamonds.

 

Now, if East's hand would be good enough for game only, he doesn't get the bidding room to go back to diamonds. East would need to gamble that West has something in spades. But East's hand was good enough for slam. That meant that East did have the bidding room to finish showing his whole hand: "I have spades, want to play in a slam and I have diamond support."

 

But since East failed to realize that he put West with his back to the wall, he just didn't think about describing his hand any more. He thought that West had raised spades and that spades were the trump suit, no matter what. But West didn't raise spades. He only showed some spade tolerance.

At IMPs I agree that it would be a big mistake to not offer diamonds with the east cards.

This I don't understand. East isn't the only one at the table who knows the form of scoring. West knows it too. If East offers to play 6♦ at MPs, West is also allowed to know that a making 6♠ contract scores better than a making 6♦ contract and that they are playing MPs. If West has a hand with which he happily bid 4♠, he will refuse the offer to play 6♦ and go back to spades. He can bid 6NT if he wants to. But if he has a hand that only bid 4♠ because it was the least of evils, he will gladly accept the offer to play the slam in diamonds.

 

Rik

[JLOGIC]

East didn't "get raised". West was put with his back to the wall and East should realize that. East knows (or should know) that 4♠ could be based on a small doubleton.

 

I was with you until...

 

It could even be a singleton (move a spade to the club suit) and the only thing West can do is hope that his partner has a good six or seven card suit.

 

Rik

 

No, it really can't be a singleton. If partner has a good 6 or seven card suit he might, you know, rebid it if we don't raise spades on a singleton.

 

Usually 3♠ shows a good long suit. If East has "a flexible hand" he would tend to double. Here, East doesn't need to double.

 

3S is a totally normal bid for someone who has 5 spades and not 4 hearts and a game forcing hand. You would be hardpressed to find someone who didnt bid 3S with AJxxx Kxx KQx xx.

 

I think you have this auction conceptually completely wrong, even though I do not disagree with your main point that east should offer diamonds at some point because partner might have raised on a doubleton, and also because if partner has 4 diamonds it is very likely you need to play diamonds rather than spades for the pitch(es). It is not like you have a tremendous amount of values on this hand. However if partner has 5 diamonds and 3 spades it's likely spades is right at MP since you can pitch from your hand, that said if partner has no spade jack there is a reasonable chance that spades split poorly and diamonds will be better in those cases.

[mike777]

This is a tough hand yet it seems another example of cuebidding to disaster.

 

east feels compelled to show spades and never raise diamonds and cuebids

west is stuck for bids

 

agree with the points that east is too worried that west has nothing in hearts given east has spades and diamonds and the club ace, west must have something outside of clubs.

[rmnka447]

Well, there's being stuck and there's being stuck.

 

I'm marking West's 4 ♠ bid as the most egregious.

 

Has anyone considered that West just might rebid 4 ♦ instead of raising ♠s? It allows East the most flexibility in bidding his hand. On certain hands, it even let's East bring ♥s into play as a possible strain.

 

On this hand, it happens to work like a charm. East can infer that West must hold some ♥ honors from the cards he holds. So he can initiate the slam search via either RKCB or a 5 ♣ cue.

[MrAce]

I % 100 agree with West's 4♠ bid.

[Trinidad]

East didn't "get raised". West was put with his back to the wall and East should realize that.

I was with you until...

It could even be a singleton (move a spade to the club suit) and the only thing West can do is hope that his partner has a good six or seven card suit.

No, it really can't be a singleton. If partner has a good 6 or seven card suit he might, you know, rebid it if we don't raise spades on a singleton.

I am curious. What would you bid after 3♠ if you move a spade to the club suit?

[hv=pc=n&w=s6haq97daj986cj43]133|100[/hv]

Anything you bid is ugly.

 

Usually 3♠ shows a good long suit. If East has "a flexible hand" he would tend to double. Here, East doesn't need to double.

3S is a totally normal bid for someone who has 5 spades and not 4 hearts and a game forcing hand. You would be hardpressed to find someone who didnt bid 3S with AJxxx Kxx KQx xx.

I did add qualifiers like "usually" and "tend" to my statement. Maybe it was still somewhat too strong and I am overestimating the expected spade length for 3♠, in a similar way that I think East overestimated the spade length for 4♠.

 

Having said that, I can think of a few players who -in my estimate- would double 3♣ with your ♠AJxxx ♥Kxx ♦KQx ♣xx, "leaving all options open". And, not that it proves much, but opposite the actual West hand in this discussion (♠63 ♥AQ97 ♦AJ986 ♣J4) they would have reached a 4♥ contract which IMO is better than the 4♠ that is reached after 3♠. I could easily imagine that this is a style difference between Europe and America (or between mainland Europe and the Anglosaxon world). Given that the OP came from Ann Arbor, MI, we should consider the auction with an American style in mind.

 

Any way, we seem to agree about the need to show the diamond support at some point. This is, IMO, more relevant to the discussion about this hand than small style differences in defining the line between bidding 3♠ and doubling.

 

Rik

[JLOGIC]

 

I am curious. What would you bid after 3♠ if you move a spade to the club suit?

[hv=pc=n&w=s6haq97daj986cj43]133|100[/hv]

Anything you bid is ugly.

 

 

I agree with this, but raising on a stiff is just not something I would consider. I think it will often lead to a 5-1 fit, and when partner has spades good enough to play opposite a stiff he will rebid them no matter what I bid (exception being he might pass 3N with solid spades since thats good for NT too!). I would bid 3N, 4D, and 4H all before 4S, I would probably choose 3N with Jxx and probably 4D without the jack. I guess I think 4S is ridiculous and you don't because you apparently would bid 3S less often than me.

 

I could easily imagine that this is a style difference between Europe and America (or between mainland Europe and the Anglosaxon world).

 

Maybe so, apologies if this is true.

 

Any way, we seem to agree about the need to show the diamond support at some point. This is, IMO, more relevant to the discussion about this hand than small style differences in defining the line between bidding 3♠ and doubling.

 

Yep I agree. Even if you are like me and would only raise to 4S on a small doubleton when you have no club stopper and no other reasonable bid (as here), east should recognize that this situation is much more likely than it normally is when he has his actual hand...18 points, and the club ace, and good long diamonds (making partner unlikely to have 6 diamonds to rebid, let alone good ones).

 

Combine that with the times where 6D is better even opposite 3 card support (eg Jxx AJxx AJxx Jx where 6D is very good and 6S is very bad, or when partner has 3 small spades and diamonds can make on a bad spade split, etc), and imo it is correct for east to keycard then bid 6D. I would not expect partner to correct that to 6S given how strong my spades are.

 

It might depend on what the field is and what my goals are (qualifying vs final day, whatever), what my style is for opening (if it's lighter than normal then when partner has a light opener we will probably do great for making any slam since most people won't open), and other factors. I would accept that sometimes I get less than the optimal score from that route in order to maximize my chance of making a slam. I am not surprised by clees post though, he is a killer and is always going for the throat, typical of a young persons style (haha just kidding, just wanted to say that at some point in my life). Clee is certainly a good and successful matchpoint player and I don't know if he's wrong or right but keycarding and bidding 6S would not be that great on this layout! If someone bid keycard then 6S I would not think they are right but I wouldn't think they are crazy, they are gambling that 6S will make often enough that they will gain more than they will lose when 6D makes and 6S is down. If partner had Jx of spades and the same hand, they'd come out smelling like a rose, it's certainly a fine line and not solvable, as is often the case in these spots at MP. MP is just a really hard game sometimes.

 

I think it is ridiculous to cuebid and signoff in 5S like east did, but once that happens west has to bid 5N to offer other strains, as I said, there is no downside, if partner doesn't pick spades you're thrilled. And here he wouldn't. Bidding 6S the way the auction went is just a super lazy/bad bid.

[mikl_plkcc]

As West, I would offer my 4-card ♥ suit, as raising ♠ with a doubleton certainly leads to a disaster.

[mike777]

fwiw as a nonexpert I would just bid 4c not 3s. Afraid the auction will get too complicated to get back to d's.

 

 

I can understand if true experts think getting back into d at the best level is not an issue.

[JLOGIC]

4C would be a strong spade raise

[Antrax]

He's suggesting east do it.

[mike777]

? I dont think 4c shows a strong spade raise over 3h I thought it shows d

[Trinidad]

fwiw as a nonexpert I would just bid 4c not 3s. Afraid the auction will get too complicated to get back to d's.

 

 

I can understand if true experts think getting back into d at the best level is not an issue.

In the OP the problem was that the players were too focussed on spades. This went wrong when West had only 2 spades. A little unlucky.

 

Your view is the other extreme: forget about spades alltogether and raise diamonds. But that would go wrong if West had a 4432 hand. Also a little unlucky.

 

Sometimes, particularly after opponents preempt, you have to accept the risk of being a little unlucky. But in this case it is not hard to avoid being unlucky: Just bid 3♠ first and then 6♦, even if partner "raises" spades. If the opponents let you have the bidding room (as here), you can (and should) keycard first, but if they don't just bid 6♦.

 

The point is not that it is difficult or complicated to show spades first and then diamonds. What is difficult is for East to realize that 4♠ doesn't show three card support. I think that after 4♠ East never thought there could be a problem with the spades (as clee points out, East has the three top honors in spades!). That is an enormous trap on this hand.

 

Rik

[mike777]

agree think that everyone knows that

 

I take the risk prd does not hve 3d......

 

you state it is easy to show spades and d....ok.........i think i covered that

 

 

see forum comments....you make it too easy......