Weighing the ups and downs

[gnasher]

With a queen ask from N.

You ask for the queen and find out that he has it. He'll also unhelpfully tell you that he doesn't have ♥K or ♣K, and you'll be at the 6♠ level. All you've done is convert a guess about his spade holding into a guess about his club holding.

 

Edit: Or maybe he'll tell you that he has ♦A, then you'll bid 6♥ as your only grand slam try, and he'll have no idea what you want.

[gnasher]

How would you have bid it?

Using methods that let responder show his club suit, so that when he gets to the point of making a grand slam try opener knows what he's being asked for.

[cherdano]

You ask for the queen and find out that he has it. He'll also unhelpfully tell you that he doesn't have ♥K or ♣K, that he has the ♦Aand you'll be at the 6♠ 6♦ level. All you've done is convert a guess about his spade holding into a guess about his club holding.

FYP.

Which seems a much better guess to me. If partner has 2 or 4 clubs we are fine. If he has exactly 3 clubs, we need him to have the ♣Q (a 3/7 chance, almost as good as the 4/9 chance in spades), or it we need to rely on the 40% or 50% (if he has ♣J) chance of clubs coming in anyway.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What does this prove? RKCB will always work out better than EKCB when partner shows all the aces! You know more, and you know it at a lower level. Meanwhile, RKCB gives up any hope of finding grand opposite the ♥A without the ♦A - which may well be the best chance for a grand.

The origial post has already shown the pitfalls of trying to reach the grand w/Exclusion.

 

But KenRex's post has given me another idea for this hand:

 

South

1NT - 2C

2S - 3H! ( anonymous splinter ; also part of the Baze Convention )

3S! ( asks where ) - 4D! ( here )

4H! (cue, and since Responder has the ♥K, he knows 4H! = ♥A ) - 4NT ( RKC for ♠ )

??

Now if Opener only showed 1 key card, Responder knows it is the ♥ Ace and not the ♦A..... but the next bid should be the trump Q-ask.... and the 6S reply = ♠Q but no outside K leaves no room for a 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask.

[gwnn]

You ask for the queen and find out that he has it. He'll also unhelpfully tell you that he doesn't have ♥K or ♣K, and you'll be at the 6♠ level. All you've done is convert a guess about his spade holding into a guess about his club holding.

 

Edit: Or maybe he'll tell you that he has ♦A, then you'll bid 6♥ as your only grand slam try, and he'll have no idea what you want.

Not really - I've converted a guess about his black-suit holdings into a guess about his club holding. That seems to be an improvement.

[mfa1010]

This auction seems to scream for an understanding that no one seems to recognize, which is rather shocking.

 

Responder started with 5♦ as Exclusion RKCB, and we responded 5♠. As Justin noted, 5NT seems obviously to be the Queen-ask. As Justoin also noted, 6♣ would seem to be the King-ask.

 

Where this breaks down, though, is in how you respond to this King-ask. You have three calls available:

 

6♦

6♥

6♠

 

Obviously, 6♠ should deny any King.

 

Obviously, as well, 6♥ should show the heart King and an inability to bid 6♦, whatever that would show.

 

So, in the context of an Exclusion sequence, excluding diamonds, what should 6♦ show?

 

Obviously, showing the diamond King would be stupid.

 

Justin seems to assume that 6♦ would show the diamond Ace, but how useful is that card? What -- partner has 7-4-0-2 shape? Please.

 

6♦, IMO, is the OBVIOUS surrogate for showing the one card that WOULD be useful -- the club King.

 

This is almost so obvious that it is laughable.

Yes, I agree with your logic if you play king ask after exclusion. I never did. Maybe it makes good sense to do so but the situations tend to different after exclusion vs RKC. After exclusion I expect the asker to be a captain with a plan (after RKC 5N is more like a general try). Therefore asker in my methods can just bypass a suit if he needs a king there, and teller will know to head for 7. I feel that going through the motion first of having a bid asking for kings is robbing valuable space in an often cramped sequence, but maybe that is wrong.

 

Having these definitions, then, in the actual auction Opener bids 6♠ because he has no round King. Duh. The problem, as some have noted, is that 6♣ was a bad call, and that 5NT stands out as equally obvious. In that sequence, NOW you can show the club King (if you have it) naturally by bidding 6♣, and you also have the ability to show (or deny) the diamond Ace if you want to. Arguably, though, it might make sense to have 6♦ in a Queen-ask 5NT auction show the club Queen, or possibly (preferably) the club Queen equivalent (club Queen, diamond Ace, or club doubleton with extra trumps). Kind of a "not quite grand slam last trian yet" call.

 

As to the actual auction, assumig the Exclusion start, 5NT would now get a 6♦ rebid by Opener (club Queen, club doubleton with extra trump length, or diamond Ace, but no club King, but in all cases with the trump Queen), which is not enough to know that the grand is making but is close.

 

I don't see why 5♦-5♠-5N-6♦ should show the club queen rather than the heart queen. And what would you do with no extra card to show but still with the ♠Q? That would be a 6♦ bid for me (except that I play worst-first here in my primary partnership, so I would actually bid 6♠ where 6♦ would be ♠Q + ♣K as in your logic above).

[han]

Having these definitions, then, in the actual auction Opener bids 6♠ because he has no round King. Duh. The problem, as some have noted, is that 6♣ was a bad call, and that 5NT stands out as equally obvious. In that sequence, NOW you can show the club King (if you have it) naturally by bidding 6♣, and you also have the ability to show (or deny) the diamond Ace if you want to.

 

I think that there has to be some call below 6S that shows the spade queen. If 6C and 6H show the kings of resp. clubs and hearts, the only call left is 6D and I think it says nothing about diamonds.

[han]

Sorry, I see that MFA posted similarly.

[han]

Not really - I've converted a guess about his black-suit holdings into a guess about his club holding. That seems to be an improvement.

 

Yes indeed. And obviously you don't want to be in 7 when partner does not have the spade queen, but 7 might still be good when partner does not have a second round club control, for example when partner has 4 clubs. Given that only a 3-card suit is bad, and that partner might still have the queen (in which case 7 is nearly cold) or the jack (in which case 7 has ok chances) I think that bidding 7 is clear when partner shows the spade queen, while we would have no clue if we didn't know about the spade queen.

[kenrexford]

I don't see why 5♦-5♠-5N-6♦ should show the club queen rather than the heart queen. And what would you do with no extra card to show but still with the ♠Q? That would be a 6♦ bid for me (except that I play worst-first here in my primary partnership, so I would actually bid 6♠ where 6♦ would be ♠Q + ♣K as in your logic above).

 

The reason for the 6♦ call showing the club queen rather than the heart Queen is as follows:

 

 

1. If partner asked for the spade Queen, he only has four or five spades. If he only has four or five spades, then he must have 4+ clubs, but with only four spades he need not even have three hearts (e.g., 4-2-0-7 pattern). Hence, the club Queen is more likely of value than the heart Queen.

 

2. Because Opener denied four hearts, Opener has only 2-3 hearts, such that the chances of a heart doubleton are greater on average than the chances of a club doubleton, such that again the honor card in clubs is again probably more important.

 

3. Consistency (if the diamond call shows a club feature in any auction, having it parallel this in other auctions is consistent).

 

 

 

What about no extra card and the spade Queen?

 

If partner need no extra card except the spade Queen for the grand, then a priori he needed me to have just the heart Ace and the spade Queen for the grand. If that is all that he needed, then the fact that this sequence makes that specific holding impossible to identify means that 5♦ was the wrong start. Maybe cuebidding; maybe something else. If there is no "something else," then you end up in an unresolvable problem. However, the odds that Opener with a strong 1NT has those two cards but cannot show anything else is so remote that catering to that one unusual holding seems strange.

[kenrexford]

I think that there has to be some call below 6S that shows the spade queen. If 6C and 6H show the kings of resp. clubs and hearts, the only call left is 6D and I think it says nothing about diamonds.

 

 

See post above, but a summary. Both 6♣ and 6♥ show the spade Queen with this card. 6♦ shows the spade Queen with (IMO) the club Queen, diamond Ace, or club doubleton. If Opener has ♠QJxxx ♥AQJ ♦KQJ ♣Jxx, he has no bid. But, that is rare. Plus, if Responder needed just the heart Ace and spade Queen, this auction cannot reveal just that, and thus a different sequence would be appropriate OR the hand just cannot be bid. Sacrificing other meanings to handle this one hand seems bad.

[kenrexford]

Yes indeed. And obviously you don't want to be in 7 when partner does not have the spade queen, but 7 might still be good when partner does not have a second round club control, for example when partner has 4 clubs. Given that only a 3-card suit is bad, and that partner might still have the queen (in which case 7 is nearly cold) or the jack (in which case 7 has ok chances) I think that bidding 7 is clear when partner shows the spade queen, while we would have no clue if we didn't know about the spade queen.

 

 

With four clubs, knowing that partner has only four or five spades means that the fourth club is probably a Queen-equivalent. That might be debatable. Of course, a cue sequence earlier would have helped some.

[gnasher]

Not really - I've converted a guess about his black-suit holdings into a guess about his club holding. That seems to be an improvement.

I suppose it depend on what 6♣ means in the original auction. In my world 6♣ is asking for third-round club control, so it's a straight swap of a guess about spades for a guess about clubs.

[dake50]

Would 5NT ask Kings? Partner didn't do that.

I play 6C asks 1st, 2nd, 3rd control in Clubs.

Since partner took so much space, he can't need

1st nor 2nd (could have found that lower). I do have C-3rd.

7S.

[gszes]

my hand is almost as horrific as it can get i started with

a 15 -17 nt hand and appear to have found p with a 6403

(using stayman then not asking about spade Q). If we are

right my Spade QJ Dia QJ (and probably A) are worthless.

The only redeeming feature in my hand is the doubleton

club and that is uselss because anything the doubleton

will take care of so will the dia A.

 

 

The bidding has turned my once proud 1n opener into this:

 

xxxxx

AJT

Axxx

xx

 

P already knows about the heart A and it was not enough to

go to 7. The dubious doubleton club value and the JT of hearts

nahhhhhhhhhhhh I am bidding 6s cant imagine my once proud

hand can produce 7. I have some sympathy for those that want

to bid 6d (to show the A) and I would agree with that if my spade

Q were in hearts instead.

[gszes]

Exclusion is wrong because the failure to ask for the spade Q gives

opener the impression you have 6 spades (it is also wrong to be

looking for 7 missing the trump Q unless you have 6 spades).

 

It seems a straightforward bidding sequence yields the best results

 

1n 2c

2s 4n

5s 6c (asking for 3rd round control)

7s

 

This wont always work when opener has a huge amount of wasted values

in dia and a doubleton club (probably an inevitable heart loser) but should

overall be rewarded with many positive results. Please dont try and convince

me 4h is quantitative vs blackwood. If I had a quantitative hand I would have

bid it right from the start. It was the 2s response that allowed me to take charge

of the hand.

[Codo]

I guess noone except Codo and possibly gwnn agrees with my partner's bidding? How would you have bid it?

 

[hv=sn=mgoetze&s=SQJT42HAJTDAQJCT5&n=sak93hk64cak9643&d=e&v=n&b=9&a=P1N(14-16)P2CP2SP5DP5S(1 or 4)P6CP6SPPP]300|225[/hv]

 

I did not agree at all with your partners bidding, (it was a horrible bid)- you did see the smiley? I just tried to guess what he thought.

[phil_20686]

I don't understand the auction.

Assuming 5D is voidwood, partner has taken control. I told him how many keycards I have and he's done something other than sign off.

 

I assume I have an agreement about the 6C bid, so you'd better tell me what it is.

If he was interested in my opinion, he wouldn't have jumped to 5D. He could (I assume) have bid 4D, or 3H (forcing raise). He didn't do any of them.

 

As he hasn't asked about the SQ he must be something like 6403. The ace of diamonds is thus useless and I seem to have a working 8-count in my 14-16 NT. If he isn't bidding grand himself, or asking for kings, I can't see how our hand can be what he is looking for.

 

If I am being asked my opinion, I seem to have an obvious sign-off: the only good thing about my hand is the doubleton club.

I could be looking at QJxx AK xxxx KQx. Now that really would be a good hand.

 

Id partner is AKxxxx KQxx - Axx are you not cold? Surely he needs all those cards. Even if he has less: AKxxxx Kxx - AKxx You are still cold for grand. He is more likely to be 6403, but even if he has only the heart K, grand is still better than a finesse.

 

I guess that 6 clubs is intended as a third round control ask. Guess that I should accept.

[phil_20686]

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