Easy Polish club question

[awm]

Suppose you hold a balanced hand with about 4-6 points. After 1c-1d-1M (opponents passing) what do you bid?

[mgoetze]

Your choices are 1S, 1NT and 2M.

[awm]

So with three card support, raise or 1nt?

[bluecalm]

With 4 you generally pass.

With 5-7 you have a problem as partner could have 21. In general you bid 1NT with 3 cards support and raise with 4 card support.

 

This is clumsy sequence for polish club and many defenses arised to exploit it including passing every strong hand vs pc and doubling later hoping to catch them in 12-5 1NT or 2M.

[mgoetze]

Three card raises are generally rare in Europe. If my entire system discussion were "Polish Club" I would assume that a raise shows 4 and you bid 1NT with 3.

[bluecalm]

Three card raises are generally rare in Europe

 

There are even rarer if partner can have systemic 3 themselves ;)

[straube]

Matula writes in his "The Polish Club" that 1C-1D, 1H is the correct rebid for the weak NT hands except specifically the 4-2-3-4 pattern which rebids 1S (just a paragraph earlier he said that 1H was the correct rebid for all weak NT major suit combinations except 4S/2H so why 4-2-3-4 specific I don't understand). Note that others might play different. Also note that 1C-1D, 1M can show other hands than the weak NT.

 

After 1C-1D, 1H

 

.....P-is possible

.....1S-he doesn't discuss this so I infer natural nf

.....1N-he doesn't discuss this so I infer minors nf

.....2m-natural and 12 or fewer hcps

.....2H-he doesn't discuss this so I infer natural

.....2S-10-12, five or more diamonds, 4 clubs

.....2N-16+, no 4-cd major or 5 minor

.....3C-gf, very good 6-cd suit

.....3D-10-12, six or more diamonds

 

So basically, it appears that most low-level bids are reserved for scrambling.

[mgoetze]

I've never read Matula's book on stone-age Polish Club but it seems weird to me to bid 1♥ with 4-3 majors.

[straube]

Maybe his book is too old to be useful. Could someone post a link to something more recent?

[bluecalm]

I've never read Matula's book on stone-age Polish Club but it seems weird to me to bid 1♥ with 4-3 majors.

 

There are some people doing this (bidding 1H on every weak hand). It's certainly not standard and I don't really see a point in it but I think it's not completely silly.

 

..1N-he doesn't discuss this so I infer minors nf

 

No, you need something for 5-6-7hcp and bal. You can't pass because opener could have 21.

 

.....2m-natural and 12 or fewer hcps

 

11 or fewer and 11 is not very comfortable. This is wide ranging bid (from nothing to 11) and you won't play game opposite basically 12-14 ever (as actions from opener will be considered competitive if they interfere and if they don't opener won't bid without super maximum and 4 card support).

 

.3C-gf, very good 6-cd suit

 

There are no GF club hands in 1D in any version of pc I am aware of.

3C and 3D bids are usually played as invitational (9-11) with weakish suit (good suits bid 3C/3D directly after 1C) but those are so rare I can't recall one time they occurred.

 

If you see holes in that, it's no surprise 1C - 1D - 1H/S sequence is weak side of pc. Fortunately it's rare as they usually bid and usually you can manage if they don't. You may end up in something silly though.

[mgoetze]

I didn't say it's completely silly, I do kind of see the point. It's just not what I would expect.

[Codo]

Wasn't the "lie" with 1 ♣ 1 ♦ 1 ♥ more common in the older versions of WJ?

Since WJ 2005 1 ♦ quite frequently holds 7-8 HCPS with a minor suit orientated hand, so the doubles of the later following 1 NT became less attractive...

[the hog]

with 3 card support and a 6-8 count bid 1NT.

[the hog]

Matula does not say this at all and I would hardly state that his book is Stone Age Polish Club, far from it in fact.

What he does say is that some player, (including himself), prefer that 1S is always 4 cards, noty 3 as is sometimes the case with versions of WJ. That means with 12-14 and a 3244 shape, he preefers to bid 1NT.

[han]

There are some people doing this (bidding 1H on every weak hand).

 

Although Drijver-Brink don't play Polish club, they do rebid 1H on all weak notrump hands.

[straube]

Matula does not say this at all and I would hardly state that his book is Stone Age Polish Club, far from it in fact.

What he does say is that some player, (including himself), prefer that 1S is always 4 cards, noty 3 as is sometimes the case with versions of WJ. That means with 12-14 and a 3244 shape, he preefers to bid 1NT.

 

That's not quite right either. From Matula's "The Polish Club"

 

"...with a weak, balanced hand. There are only two bids a prepared club opener can choose from, having heard partner's 1D response. They are 1H and 1S. For safety reasons and because of serious systemic considerations, I think that the traditional method of bidding the longer major or the cheaper major with equal length in hearts and spades should be modified as follows: After 1C-1D opener bids 1H with all major-suit combinations except when he has two hearts and four spades. Then he bids 1S....Assigning opener's 1S rebid the precise meaning in terms of relative major-suit length also helps in rescue manoeuvres because this rebid, when made on a weak hand, discloses the whole shape of opener's hand which must be 4-2-3-4....

 

 

and

 

....a balanced hand (good 18 to 23 HCP)-1N 18-21...2N-22-23"

 

So with a 12-14 3244 he rebids 1H. 1C-1D, 1N is 18-21.

[Tomi2]

Matula does not say this at all and I would hardly state that his book is Stone Age Polish Club, far from it in fact.

What he does say is that some player, (including himself), prefer that 1S is always 4 cards, noty 3 as is sometimes the case with versions of WJ. That means with 12-14 and a 3244 shape, he preefers to bid 1NT.

noooo

1NT rebid is alyways 18-20 in all polish club systems. the question is if you bid 1H or 1S but not 1NT...

[the hog]

noooo

1NT rebid is alyways 18-20 in all polish club systems. the question is if you bid 1H or 1S but not 1NT...

 

 

I meant 1H of course and this was a mistype. That should have been obvious to everyone. Of course 1NT is 18-20.

[straube]

I meant 1H of course and this was a mistype. That should have been obvious to everyone. Of course 1NT is 18-20.

 

As far as being obvious, I don't know what you do and don't know about Polish Club. Not surprised it was a mistype.

[awm]

It seems that this sequence creates a couple issues.

 

When opener has a weak notrump and responder has something like 4-6, you can't really get out in 1M. You'll end up playing some pretty bad contracts, and opponents may be able to double since it's pretty clear by the time 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-Pass comes around what has occurred.

 

You will have some awkward sequences when opener has the strong hand. In standard you might bid 1M-2M-4M; in precision maybe 1♣-1♦-1M-2M-4M. But in Polish club you will get 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-2x-3M-4M at minimum (giving more information about opener's shape) and if responder bids 2M instead of 3M that could presumably be preference and you'll get an even longer sequence that makes declarer's hand basically an open book.

 

I begin to see how the Martel defense of "pass with good hands, then double them" can work out well.

[dcrc2]

It seems that this sequence creates a couple issues.

 

When opener has a weak notrump and responder has something like 4-6, you can't really get out in 1M. You'll end up playing some pretty bad contracts, and opponents may be able to double since it's pretty clear by the time 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-Pass comes around what has occurred.

I never found this sequence to be much of a problem. The field can't play in 1M on these hands either. You're ending up in 1NT on two balanced hands with roughly half the deck, which, if anything, is a good place to be.

 

The range of 1♣-1NT makes a bit of a difference. WJ05 used a 9-11 range, which is perhaps a little odd, but it does mean that 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT is 4-8, making it impossible for opponents to double "on the auction". I used to play 1♣-1NT as invitational which had the same effect. Trying not to tell opponents that they had the majority of the deck was certainly one of the reasons for playing it that way.

[antonylee]

You will have some awkward sequences when opener has the strong hand. In standard you might bid 1M-2M-4M; in precision maybe 1♣-1♦-1M-2M-4M. But in Polish club you will get 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-2x-3M-4M at minimum (giving more information about opener's shape) and if responder bids 2M instead of 3M that could presumably be preference and you'll get an even longer sequence that makes declarer's hand basically an open book.

It can simply go

1♣-1♦

1M-1N(5-7)

2M(18-20)-3/4M

which is hardly worse than the standard or Precision auctions.

[rhm]

It seems that this sequence creates a couple issues.

 

When opener has a weak notrump and responder has something like 4-6, you can't really get out in 1M. You'll end up playing some pretty bad contracts, and opponents may be able to double since it's pretty clear by the time 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-Pass comes around what has occurred.

 

You will have some awkward sequences when opener has the strong hand. In standard you might bid 1M-2M-4M; in precision maybe 1♣-1♦-1M-2M-4M. But in Polish club you will get 1♣-1♦-1M-1NT-2x-3M-4M at minimum (giving more information about opener's shape) and if responder bids 2M instead of 3M that could presumably be preference and you'll get an even longer sequence that makes declarer's hand basically an open book.

 

I begin to see how the Martel defense of "pass with good hands, then double them" can work out well.

This is not correct.

While you respond 1♦ almost always with less than 7 HCP in Polish Club, you may respond 1♦ with stronger hands.

The variant of Polish Club I prefer is that an immediate 1NT response to 1♣ shows invitational values opposite 12-14 (slightly stronger than WJ05), about 10(+) - 12 HCP, normally denying a 4 card major.

With the weak variant opener passes or bids 3NT. This allows us to stop in 1NT when others tend to play 2NT or in a bad 3NT.

Accordingly I will respond 1♦ with up to 10 HCP with a balanced hand if I do not have a 4 card major. If I then rebid 1NT over 1♣-1♦-1M I show between 5 and 10(-) HCP.

I do not see how opponents can easily exploit that and I can not remember having ever had a problem. The only information known round the table is that the values for 3NT are not present when opener has the weak variant.

This information is always known any time 1NT gets passed out. Of course telling opponents you want to undertake 1NT with insufficient values in both hands combined is plain stupid.

Matula's reasons for responding 1♥ with almost all hands in the 12-14 HCP range do not sound convincing to me. But even I prefer that a 1♠ rebid by opener usually guarantees 4 cards. With 12-14 balanced and no 4 card major I prefer to rebid 1♥.

When 1♦ is opened on 4 cards, the 1♥ rebid after 1♣-1♦ guarantees either hearts or clubs.

I disagree that responder with 4-6 HCP can only bid 1♠ or 1NT over 1♥. Responder can also bid a 5 card club suit or a 6 card diamond suit, showing about 5-11 HCP. There is little risk here, since opener tends to pass with the weak variant and bids on otherwise.

If opener's 1♥ rebid gets doubled, opener should correct to 2♣ with no hearts and a 5 card club suit (weak variant) and responder should do likewise when holding at least 4 clubs and no major.

Martel's defense of "pass with good hands then double them" may have worked against older versions of Polish Club, but is not likely to work against modern variants, at least not against those variants, where a 1♦ opening promises only 4 cards, narrowing down the possible holdings of the weak variant in Polish club.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Tomi2]

...

Martel's defense of "pass with good hands then double them" may have worked against older versions of Polish Club, but is not likely to work against modern variants, at least not against those variants, where a 1♦ opening promises only 4 cards, narrowing down the possible holdings of the weak variant in Polish club.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

Nearly nobody opens 1dia on 4 cards in Poland, that idea to open minors an an american style is, as fat as I know, only published in Jassems english translation of WJ05, the polish one uses the normal and good approach to open 1 club on the balanced hands even with 4 dias.

 

A reason, why Martens' idea sometimes fails is some other:

(1♣) - pass - (1♦) - ??? pass

1M - pass - (2M) - ???

 

now its your turn, you have a strong hand and forgot to bid in your first turn. Say the bidding has already reached 2♠ and you now know they hold 7 to 9 spades with 16 to 26 hcp, lucky you...

 

or:

1♣ - ?? pass - any weak jump - pass

pass - ??

 

now you can express that you want to enter the auction because you hold more points than the opener but have much less room to do so.

 

even after 1♣-1♦-1♥ and now 2nd seat is on, its not clear if the auction will end (undoubled) or if they correct to a better (worse) contract and you get the chance to bid again. Playing double in that seat as "either 1 heart doubled will be the best contract for us or we better take it out" is also not so easy...