jillybean Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 1♣:1♦2♥:2♠3♣:4♦4♠:queen ask? 2♥ strong jump, 4♦ kickback, 4♠ 1430, how do I ask for the queen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I don't play kickback, but wouldn't it make sense to have 4NT ask for the queen? Or more generally, if the initial response doesn't guarantee/deny the queen, 5 of trumps is sign-off, the first non-signoff step is queen-ask, the second non-signoff step is king-ask. And I guess the next NT bid can substitute for a third-round ask. So 4NT = queen ask, 5C = signoff, 5D = king ask, 5H/S = third-round ask, 5NT = third-round ask in diamonds. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 1♣:1♦2♥:2♠3♣:4♦4♠:queen ask? 2♥ strong jump, 4♦ kickback, 4♠ 1430, how do I ask for the queen? 4nt btw prefer to play 03-14 kickback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 4NT would ask for the ♣queen. 5♣ would be to play. 5♦ would suggest responder has or does not care about ♣Q, and ask for the ♥K. 5♠ would suggest responder has or does not care about ♣Q and ♥K, and ask for the ♦K. Even if you don't play all that, 4NT would ask for the ♣queen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHS_K_Chow Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 With the partners I play with (whether kickback or minorwood), over the minors, 4N and 5m would be to play. The cheapest non-5m or non-4N bid, in this case, 5♦, would be queen ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GHS_K_Chow Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 Lag. Posted twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted June 6, 2012 Report Share Posted June 6, 2012 I play that the first step is always the queen ask. In response to that, first step denies the queen and others show specific kings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 4N was my guess, unfortunately my partner mistook it for quantitative. I think on this auction it should be clear that 4N is the queen ask however on other auctions after kickback and a spade response, would 4N ever be a place to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 4N is the Q ask. A good rule is if responder to KB has "x" key cards (you can usually tell between 0/3, 1/4), then 4N is the Q ask. Put it this way, when we show three keys, do we really want to play 4N (i.e., partner has ZERO)? I would not have had the same comfort level as you that 4♦ is RKC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 4N is the Q ask. A good rule is if responder to KB has "x" key cards (you can usually tell between 0/3, 1/4), then 4N is the Q ask. Put it this way, when we show three keys, do we really want to play 4N (i.e., partner has ZERO)?And if partner shows 2 keys, you would play 4N as Q ask too? blonde momentI would not have had the same comfort level as you that 4♦ is RKC.We are in a gf auction and 4♦ is a jump, it's KB :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I play that the first step is always the queen ask. In response to that, first step denies the queen and others show specific kings.Do you play that the second step is King ask ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) You have identified the peril of the Q-ask in Kickback when you use 4NT next as "to play" . [EDIT: In the case of the 4♠ reply ... ] you have NO Q-ask BELOW 5-trump when ♣ are trump .When ♦ are trump there is no problem .... You will always have 5C next as ♦ Q-ask. If you don't use 4NT next as "to play" , then there is no problem . Also, with Minorwood there is no problem at all .... even when 4NT next = to play ... for either minor as trump. Some have tried to reduce the problem by playing "variable RKC " based on whether the "asker" is the strong or weak hand: -- use 0314 when the asker is the WEAK hand ... -- use 1430 when the asker is the STRONG hand ... I know, just relying on one method is confusing enough .... so I won't go into the "rules" for the weak and strong hands. Edited June 7, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 4N was my guess, unfortunately my partner mistook it for quantitative. I think on this auction it should be clear that 4N is the queen ask however on other auctions after kickback and a spade response, would 4N ever be a place to play? No, you can never play in 4nt, just have that meta rule, 4nt bid is never to play after Kickback. One auction you should discuss is the following but never have 4nt be to play. clubs are trumps and 4d is rkc in clubs and pard bids 4h now:4s=queen ask4nt= discuss but not to play, we play it as grand try showing KD, 5c=sign off. 5d=specific K ask, deny KH, grand try, deny KD.5h=specific K ask, showing KH, grand try, deny KD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 bbo forum is lagging and dupping posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSGibson Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 In the partnership where I play kickback, we have the agreement that in this specific auction, where 4♦ is kickback for clubs & gets a 4♠ response, that 4N is a Q ask. In all other minor suit kickback auctions, 4N by the kickback initiator is an offer to play for us. If we did not discuss this auction, however, I'm pretty sure that my partner and I would have been on different pages the first time it came up. edit: The reason we came to this agreement was that, especially playing matchpoints, it felt like it was important to be able to stop in 4N, except in this specific auction where stopping in 5C when we didn't have the Q became the biggest priority. The way we handle all other minor suit kickback auctions is that the first (non-4N, non 5 of our minor) step is the Q ask, and the next step guarantees all the keycards and asks for specific kings. Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 And if partner shows 2 keys, you would play 4N as Q ask too? Think about what you just asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Think about what you just asked.yeah, ignore that :ph34r: After a kickback response do you use same KB suit to ask for Kings or 1st step Queen, 2nd step Kings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 In the partnership where I play kickback, we have the agreement that in this specific auction, where 4♦ is kickback for clubs & gets a 4♠ response, that 4N is a Q ask. In all other minor suit kickback auctions, 4N by the kickback initiator is an offer to play for us. If we did not discuss this auction, however, I'm pretty sure that my partner and I would have been on different pages the first time it came up. edit: The reason we came to this agreement was that, especially playing matchpoints, it felt like it was important to be able to stop in 4N, except in this specific auction where stopping in 5C when we didn't have the Q became the biggest priority. The way we handle all other minor suit kickback auctions is that the first (non-4N, non 5 of our minor) step is the Q ask, and the next step guarantees all the keycards and asks for specific kings. Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen.Thanks, this is very useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWO4BRIDGE Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 1♣:1♦2♥:2♠3♣:4♦4♠:queen ask? 2♥ strong jump, 4♦ kickback, 4♠ 1430, how do I ask for the queen?Another way to reduce the possibility of a 4S reply ( when ♣ are trump ) is to use Minorwood when suit agreement is first shown at the 3-level and Kickback when suit agreement is first shown at the 4-level . In your example, you could have used 4C! = Minorwood . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Think of Kickback as a parallel to a 4N auction for spades. So when you are stuck, just project the auction and pretend like are responding to 4N instead of 4x. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 When playing a kickback, I think it is a mistake whatever the trump suit to attempt to keep 4NT as natural. You will then be really stuck when you need the queen for a slam. Definitely the next step should be the queen ask. What I don't understand is the way people use RKCB 3041 or 4031 etc. It doesn't make sense to me, never having played that over a 4NT ask. When I converted to kickback after reading the old useful space article I adopted a simple 1234 approach. Much easier. And of course more certain - I have seen distributional hands where you will NOT know whether the answer is 0 or 3. But that aside, kickback gives you the room to identify exactly. The compression built into the RKCB responses is designed to give you as much room as possible when starting with 4NT, when suits other than spades are trumps. This is not the case with kickback. As asker would not be asking for the Q unless he was going on to ask for kings if teller had the Q, then it makes sense for the response to the queen ask to be the next step to deny the Q, but to go on to give the king response if you do have the Q. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Our rules for denying the Q are also clear, and facilitate playing in 4N - the cheaper bid between returning to our suit or NT denies the Queen.Mmm. Sounds good, but this can only happen in just one suit, when the suit is clubs, and only when the ace reply is the first step. 2 steps and you have had it. A bit limited. When it is the second step - or the first step when diamonds are trumps - 4NT is the Q asking bid itself, so the reply must be higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fromageGB Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Do you play that the second step is King ask ?Sorry, you have asked this twice with no answer it seems. It depends on whether you want anything beyond a K ask. If you have a "3rd round ask" (whatever that is), as mentioned by quiddity who does't play kickback, then I think you would need to, so that there is space for the other asks and their replies. But for me, the K ask is the last ask, and there is no need for anything other than to use the same asking suit as used for aces. This keeps it simple and unforgettable. If 4♦ asks for aces, then 5♦ asks for kings. There is room to show all specific kings and still stop in 6♣ when any K is missing. So there is no need to have a different asking suit that may be misinterpreted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I prefer the rule that 4N is never an offer. If the queen is unknown step 1=Q ask, step 2=king ask, confirming all keycards. Signing off in your suit is not a step. Jilly, why are you playing kickback? I like kickback in very serious partnerships where you know how to use all of the room you gain, and you will also basically never have an accident. It is very good for grand slam bidding because of the room saved, and it's good for slam bidding in many auctions, but if you are ever having accidents you are negating your entire edge. If you don't know how to use all of the room, you have very little gain anyways. And this is from someone who is more pro-kickback than the average expert. I really think your life would be easier/better if you quit playing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted June 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 Hi Justin. I'm playing kickback in my one, serious partnership only, with everyone else I play bog standard 1430.I want to play it because I really like the room you gain in slam bidding. I have also said to my partner that we needto sort it out or drop it, the mistakes are too costly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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