best skip bid regulation?

[gwnn]

What do you think is the best skip bid regulation if you wanted to write one?

 

The Dutch one goes something like this:

1. Any opening bid on the 2 level or higher, or any skip bid, must be accompanied by a warning, described here:

a) With bidding boxes, you need to lay down the stop card so as both opponents can see it. If the stop card is missing, you should place your bid upside down (?!) and then turn them right side up.

b) Without bidding boxes, you should verbally announce the bid by saying 'stop!'.

2. After any bid described by 1., the next player should wait about 10 seconds before making his or her call.

3. None of this applies to screens.

 

This seems slightly weird to me - what does 2. say? I can read it in two different ways: either that you need to wait 10 seconds after any jump bid/2+ level opening bid (i.e. described by the first line), or that you need to wait 10 seconds after any jump bid/2+ opening bid if RHO made a proper warning. Furthermore, what's up with bidding upside down and when are you supposed to turn over the bidding cards? And what's the point of the stop card if you are not going to remove it? I don't get it.

 

What happened in this case was that my LHO just said 'stop' and made his jump overcall and my partner passed almost instantly. The director was called and he ruled that regardless of the use of the stop card, you always must wait 10 seconds. I asked him what he's basing this on because according to me this is written nowhere. He showed me this rule and my Dutch wasn't good enough to decipher the regulation on the spot and just believed him (apparently, he believes rule #2 means that the description of #1 refers just to the jump bid/2+ level opening part and not the stop card - in this case why use the stop card at all? surely we all can see that it is a jump overcall no?). For people who do not trust my translation above, this is the original text:

 

Artikel 10

Stopregel

1. Tenzij het RB anders voorschrijft, moet een openingsbod van 2 of hoger,

alsmede ieder sprongbod worden voorafgegaan door een waarschuwing als

volgt:

a) als gebruik gemaakt wordt van bidding boxes door de stopkaart voor beide

tegenstanders zichtbaar op tafel te leggen; als de stopkaart ontbreekt, dient

de uitgenomen stapel biedkaarten eerst ondersteboven op tafel te worden

gelegd, en vervolgens te worden omgedraaid;

b) als geen bidding boxes worden gebruikt: door het bod te laten voorafgaan

door het woord 'stop'.

2. Na een bod als in lid 1 omschreven is de volgende speler verplicht ca 10

seconden te wachten voor hij een bieding doet. Elke bieding binnen deze periode

kan als een ongeoorloofde inlichting worden aangemerkt.

3. Dit artikel is niet van toepassing bij wedstrijden waarbij tafelschermen worden

gebruikt.

 

[Vampyr]

The best, I think, is for the skip bidder to hold the card out for ten seconds and then put it away. This is easiest for everyone, and besides preventing insta-bids, it makes it clear when there is a really lengthy hesitation. (Provided the bidder holds the card out for the full ten seconds).

[gnasher]

For the mechanics, I would start with the English regulations, and modify them as follows:

 

"Before making a jump bid (ie a bid at a higher level than the minimum in that denomination)stop bid, a player should place the Stop card in front of him, then place his call as usual, and eventually remove the Stop card. His LHO should not call until the Stop card has been removed.

The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next playerother players time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

After a jump bid, the next player MUST pause for about ten seconds before calling. During this pause he should ask any questions that would normally be asked by a player considering action. It is an offence either not to pause or to show indifference when pausing. If the Stop card has been removed prematurely or has not been used, an opponent should nevertheless pause as though the Stop card had been used correctly.

If an opponent fails to pause as required by this regulation, the next player (ie the partner of the stop-bidder) should not call until after the end of the mandated pause."

 

Defining the categories of bid that require a Stop warning is not trivial. The English rule, as in some other areas, appears to value simplicity over efficacy. I would prefer something like the Norwegian rules, where (as I understand it) a stop is required in competitive auctions at the two- and three-level. And I would exclude jumps in uncontested auctions after the first round.

Edited June 5, 2012 by gnasher

[gwnn]

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

[mgoetze]

The Stop card should be left on the table for about ten seconds, to give the next playerother players time to reflect. It should not be removed prematurely.

Very much agree with this bit. I've surely told this story before, but I've had an opponent instapass despite my partner still having the stop card out, and then ask for a UI ruling against me when I took my time. I would go so far as to explicitly write into the regulations that opps forfeit their right to redress in such circumstances. (The current German regulations spell out that the side making the stop bid can forfeit some rights by not or improperly using the stop card.)

[Fluffy]

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

 

To remind you that you have to stop, since you might be thinking of a salami sandwich looking to auto pass for the rest of the auction.

 

BTW, I also think there doesn't need to be a jump for a stop to be neccesary, bids such as 2♠-double-3♠ clearly need a hesitation period.

 

However it is also very important that the stop card is used always and under very clear rules, low level pairs have been known to show values "forgetting" to use the stop card as oposed to showing weakness if the stop card is shown. Letting a pair using their own judgement about if it might be used or not goes into 2-way bids.

[gnasher]

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

It reduces the number of disputes about whether someone paused for long enough.

[Bbradley62]

How about a mandatory(!) procedural penalty against any player who bids while a stop card is displayed? If you're gonna make rules, give them teeth!

[blackshoe]

Mandatory? Why bother? Club TDs, at least, will ignore the mandate when they feel like it, which will probably be most of the time. We already have mandatory PPs for ZT violations, and those get ignored regularly at levels at least up to Regional (in the ACBL, I don't presume to speak for what happens in places I've not been).

[Jeremy69A]

I think issue 1 is making the regulation reasonably simple so requiring it whenever there is a jump means that it is hard for players to pretend they don't understand but it does exclude some non jump bids that require time and requires a wait in jump bid auctions where intervention is unlikely. In my view this state of imperfection is better than defining all the auctions where a stop is a good idea.

 

Issue 2 is what you do when players ignore the stop card. In my youth I've been known to let the card fall to the floor remarking that I won't be needing that any more but these days it would be conduct unbecoming. I think directors should be keener to enforce the procedure and impose some procedural penalties. This should perhaps be preceded by giving some warnings that tougher times are coming. The directors also need backing to do this from those in charge whether it is the club committee, the county or the national body.

If this occurs there will be some initial comment about directors being officious, The Laws and Ethics Committee being an interfering body of small minded people and the iniquity of events being decided by procedural penalties but after a little time and a healthy score of penalties players will modify their behaviour appropriately.

 

Yesterday in an event an auction on board 1 of the round went 1♥ No STOP 3♥. The 3♠ bid was on the table almost before the 3♥ bid. Nothing was said although when I then bid 4♥ the knowledge of the next player that the 3♠ was obvious not marginal might have helped him bid 4♠.

On the very next board I overcalled 2♥ with the SIOP card and the next hand paused for an entirely appropriate length of time. Partner bid STOP 4♥ and the next hand passed within 0.3 nanoseconds. A remark was now made to the effect that the STOP procedure was only being observed on one side of the table. The quick fire player got the point, observed the procedure for the rest of the match but sulked and ignored us also.

In my view it was just habit to ignore it at the club or wherever she played most of her bridge and no-one ever enforced it or commented on it. Of course in very many auctions it truly makes no difference and no-one really wants to call the director 11 times a session for this thus the authorities have got to take some tougher action.

[Vampyr]

During this pause he should ask any questions that would normally be asked by a player considering action.

 

A surprising number of players think that they cannot ask questions until the "Stop" card is removed. Sometimes after this happens I replay the "Stop" card, but it is always ignored.

 

If an opponent fails to pause as required by this regulation, the next player (ie the partner of the stop-bidder) should not call until after the end of the mandated pause."

 

Absolutely.

 

Defining the categories of bid that require a Stop warning is not trivial. The English rule, as in some other areas, appears to value simplicity over efficacy. I would prefer something like the Norwegian rules, where (as I understand it) a stop is required in competitive auctions at the two- and three-level. And I would exclude jumps in uncontested auctions after the first round.

 

Jeremy's point is a good one, but I agree with Andy here. This procedure, by the way, is used in parts of Eastern Europe as well.

[Vampyr]

In my youth I've been known to let the card fall to the floor remarking that I won't be needing that any more but these days it would be conduct unbecoming.

 

Must admit I do this sometimes. Also I sometimes push the "Stop" card into the fingers of the hand that is holding a bidding card preparing to remove it.

[Mbodell]

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

 

To wake your partner up. ;)

 

I agree that the only procedure with stop cards that makes any sense to me is the one where the skip bidder leaves the stop card out for the length of the in tempo pause and only then removes the stop card. There can still be a dispute on if the card was removed prematurely, but the partner who's turn it isn't to act can time and mediate that. I nearly always already count all pauses at the table when I'm not actively deep in thought.

[Fluffy]

another thing that would make sense is to put the stop card on the bidding space of LHO opponent, he would find it harder to ignore it.

 

It would also help beginners to understand that stop is mainly aimed to LHO, not to partner

[barmar]

Must admit I do this sometimes. Also I sometimes push the "Stop" card into the fingers of the hand that is holding a bidding card preparing to remove it.

What's the point of that?

 

The purpose of the mandatory skip is to mask whether or not LHO needed to think, to avoid giving UI to RHO. During that pause, LHO is expected to think or pretend to think, not look disinterested. If RHO can see that he was trying to bid and you delayed him, the purpose is defeated.

 

I always pause over a skip bid, although I doubt I actually last the full 10 seconds (I'm probably 5-7, I think). What worries me is that my attempt to appear to think is TOO blatant, and probably looks unnatural as a result. I have no idea what I really look like when I'm thinking, because I'm too busy thinking to notice my own unconscious mannerisms. I could observe others, but this seems to be very personal, everyone has their own ideosyncracies (my regular partner strokes his mustache when he goes into the tank).

 

I also stress over whether I'm able to maintain a good poker face when declarer is trying to guess whether to finesse or drop.

[jillybean]

If I need to wait for 10 seconds before I call regardless of what my RHO does with his stop card (leave it on the table for a minute or leave it out only for 1 second or throwing it in the garbage), what's the point of stop cards? I hope I'm not opinionated, I just don't get it.

 

 

To wake your partner up. ;)

 

This. Truely inattentive partners also need a glare along with the stop card.

[Lanor Fow]

and a kick under the table? :)

[Vampyr]

The purpose of the mandatory skip is to mask whether or not LHO needed to think, to avoid giving UI to RHO. During that pause, LHO is expected to think or pretend to think, not look disinterested. If RHO can see that he was trying to bid and you delayed him, the purpose is defeated.

 

I do it because I get annoyed.

 

 

I also stress over whether I'm able to maintain a good poker face when declarer is trying to guess whether to finesse or drop.

 

Yes. I think that leading and seeing a not-unexpected small card and then taking ages is borderline cheating. When I find that I have stopped to think in a situation like this, I am very careful not to look at either of my opponents.

[Bbradley62]

Also I sometimes push the "Stop" card into the fingers of the hand that is holding a bidding card preparing to remove it.

At my table, you'd be asking to see how my cup of coffee looks all over your shirt.

[Vampyr]

At my table, you'd be asking to see how my cup of coffee looks all over your shirt.

 

But you would never attempt to bid while I was holding out a "Stop" card.

[Trinidad]

Just my 2 cents at a STOP regulation that is entirely different. IMO it should be something like:

 

Whenever you are in a situation where you could (perhaps with another hand) have a bidding problem, you act as if you have such a bidding problem: You ask questions about alerted bids, you act as if you are thinking what to do and then you make your bid.

 

This means, as an illustration:

 

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp(2%20seconds)2c(Alerted)p(Asks%20about%202C)2dp3sp3n(Alerted)p4cp4dp4np5cp6sppp]133|100|[/hv]

 

No pauses after the jumps. After the jump to 3♠, you won't be interested in bidding if you weren't interested earlier. After the jump to 6♠, you don't need a pause either. You could see a potential 6♠ coming long before, so you have already decided if you are going to double for a lead. But, instead:

- A short pause (to fake that you need) to decide whether to overcall after 1♠

- A question after 2♣, and maybe a short pause (to fake that you need) to decide whether to double 2♣ or overcall

 

To me, it is important that players understand the reason behind the rule. After that you can make the rule as general as possible, rather than limit it to jump bids.

 

Rik

[barmar]

That would certainly be ideal, but it would be a nightmare to enforce. "a situation where you could have a bidding problem" is an incredibly vague specification.

 

Current STOP card rules don't address all the tempo issues, they just deal with a small subset that are easy to identify.

[gwnn]

At the risk of asking a pointless question on a small detail, what's up with this 'bid upside down first' rule? Am I supposed to keep my bidding cards upside down for, say, 0.5 seconds, then assume that my LHO will be able to measure the 10 seconds himself, or am I supposed to keep some of them upside down for 10 seconds (presumably not the top card ;) )? Is this the rule in any other country? I vaguely remember seeing this a few times but I've never identified it as a skip bid procedure.

[Trinidad]

At the risk of asking a pointless question on a small detail, what's up with this 'bid upside down first' rule? Am I supposed to keep my bidding cards upside down for, say, 0.5 seconds, then assume that my LHO will be able to measure the 10 seconds himself, or am I supposed to keep some of them upside down for 10 seconds (presumably not the top card ;) )? Is this the rule in any other country? I vaguely remember seeing this a few times but I've never identified it as a skip bid procedure.

I don't know where it came from. (Though I am Dutch, I learned to play bridge when I lived in the USA.)

 

The Dutch procedure is:

Show STOP card.

Make bid.

Remove STOP card.

LHO waits 10 seconds before calling.

 

(That means that the bidder doesn't control the tempo by leaving the STOP card out.)

 

If there is no STOP card, the procedure is:

Take your bid out of the bidding box and put it upside down on the table (for about a second so everyone sees that there will be a skip bid).

Make your bid by turning the bidding cards right side up.

LHO waits 10 seconds before calling.

 

This procedure has the advantage that nothing is said (no intonation issues, no UI to other tables). But I just think it looks silly.

 

As an aside, if you have a STOP rule, in my opinion it should be the skip bidder who controls the tempo. That is obviously impossible if he has to hold his bidding cards upside down. I think it is much more important that the skip bidder controls the tempo then that there is a rule for a missing STOP card. I think the rule for a missing STOP card should be that you call the TD to get you a STOP card.

 

Rik

[Trinidad]

That would certainly be ideal, but it would be a nightmare to enforce. "a situation where you could have a bidding problem" is an incredibly vague specification.

 

Current STOP card rules don't address all the tempo issues, they just deal with a small subset that are easy to identify.

But in doing so, they create a false sense of security ("we have a rule") when only the small subset is covered. What are people supposed to do in those situations that are not covered by the STOP card? There is no rule for those. Meanwhile, the makers of regulations are:

 

i) happy that they have a STOP regulation

ii) shrugging their shoulders about the hard-to-identify situations, "since it is impossible to make a rule for those".

 

The latter is definitely not true, since I just stated a rule for that. I admit that it may be difficult to enforce. But it clearly states a goal of how it should be.

 

It doesn't really help if everybody has something like this in mind, when it isn't written specifically in a regulation (or propriety). If nobody speaks up and actually says out loud where we want to go, then nobody will start walking.

 

Rik