johnu Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 [hv=pc=n&s=s5h7dkq2cakt98643&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=ppp]133|200[/hv] I was kibitzing a table with a large number of specs and several of them made some very unflattering comments about the 4th position, vul versus vul opening bid chosen by South. What's your choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antrax Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 To ignore kibs in general. That being said, I'll try 3♣ because I have matchpointitis and hope partner can make 3NT with his presumed major-suit length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 To ignore kibs in general. That being said, I'll try 3♣ because I have matchpointitis and hope partner can make 3NT with his presumed major-suit length. As a passed hand, is partner really bidding 3NT? :/ Maybe if he has Kxxx Kxxx Axx xx but even he might have opened, or wouldn't bid 3NT due to the risk of turning 110 into a minus when you have 7 clubs to KQJ and an outside Q or something. (edit: depends on expected strength in 4th seat for a pre-empt. If it should be a little stronger than a 2nd seat pre-empt, then the 3C->3NT ploy might work) I've got no idea what to try here. I think I'd probably opt for 5C and hope partner can provide me with two tricks. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 No "Other" option? I know several players who would look at their long suit and 9 Playing Tricks and open 2♣ without thinking very much further. Admittedly most of those play 2♣ as Benji. Also, a possible convention, especially in fourth seat, is to play a 3NT opening as a good 4m preempt. If you were to be playing this then this hand would qualify. To me it seems that we have to make a decision if we would be happy bidding 5♣ over a 4M bid from the opponents. If yes then we can afford to open 1♣, if no then we should probably punt 3♣ or 3NT. It is worth mentioning that a couple of clubs together with ♦A and a major suit ace is all it takes for 6♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codo Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 As a passed hand, is partner really bidding 3NT? :/ Maybe if he has Kxxx Kxxx Axx xx but even he might have opened, or wouldn't bid 3NT due to the risk of turning 110 into a minus when you have 7 clubs to KQJ and an outside Q or something. (edit: depends on expected strength in 4th seat for a pre-empt. If it should be a little stronger than a 2nd seat pre-empt, then the 3C->3NT ploy might work) I've got no idea what to try here. I think I'd probably opt for 5C and hope partner can provide me with two tricks. ahydra I doubt anybody would bid 3 Club in fourth seat with KQJxxx(xx) in clubs. Why should he? It shows a semisolid suit with a little stuff elsewhere, so I would bid 3 NT with Axx, JTxx, xxxx,xx with convidence and with your example hand I would think about 6 Clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtK78 Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 1♣. No one has bid to this point, so I am not expecting any significant interference. I am making a slam opposite two aces and a couple of clubs, so 3♣ (even a 4th seat 3♣) is just not right. [if the 2 aces are in the majors I may need the ♦J as well]. Partner is marked with some values so looking for a magic fit is not as much of a reach as it might normally be. Even if there is interference, I will go back to bidding 5♣ which some might have opened. I certainly do not expect that the opps can make 11 tricks in a major suit (or anything close to it) after the auction starts with 3 passes to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straube Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 I'll try 4C. Hopefully partner can raise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ahydra Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 1♣... I am making a slam opposite two aces and a couple of clubs, so 3♣ (even a 4th seat 3♣) is just not right. [if the 2 aces are in the majors I may need the ♦J as well]. Partner is marked with some values so looking for a magic fit is not as much of a reach as it might normally be. I actually thought along similar lines before deciding the risk of interference was too high. Perhaps you're right though, you can always bid 5C. ahydra Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted May 31, 2012 Report Share Posted May 31, 2012 1♣. No need to pull the ripcord and do anything strange. I expect my opponents to bid some majors, but its also possible we may have clear seas to 3N or even slam. What are people rebidding after 1♣ - (pass / bid) - 1M - (pass); - ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnu Posted June 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The player at the table opened 1♣ and was ripped by some kibs for not opening 3♣ with another kib lobbying for 4♣. I wasn't paying that close attention before the kibs started up, but I thought it was a routine 1♣ opener. Maybe the opponents will jam the bidding in the majors, but as others have pointed out, it doesn't take much from partner to make a game and a couple of aces and a modest club fit brings slam into the picture. A initial preempt not only preempts the opponents but your side as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 The player at the table opened 1♣ and was ripped by some kibs for not opening 3♣ with another kib lobbying for 4♣. I wasn't paying that close attention before the kibs started up, but I thought it was a routine 1♣ opener. Maybe the opponents will jam the bidding in the majors, but as others have pointed out, it doesn't take much from partner to make a game and a couple of aces and a modest club fit brings slam into the picture. A initial preempt not only preempts the opponents but your side as well. i GUESS THE POINT IS a 3c bid tells our hand it does not preempt our side...... fwiw I would miss game here if one. 3c seems to be playing for perfect cards from pard or a misbid by other 3 playersI mean on this auction would not be shocked 4s makes by opp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 It is not important whether the opponents can find and make 4M, because we would never sell out to 4M undoubled. Partner is marked with some HCP and we have (sometimes good) play for 5C if partner has one ace. I don't see how 3C tells anything like that to partner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMB1 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 No "Other" option? I know several players who would look at their long suit and 9 Playing Tricks and open ...3NT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zelandakh Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 3NT?Are you saying that 3NT as a good 4m preempt is a bad convention, or simply that it is wrong on this hand? I have no problem with the latter since I think we can/should bid 5♣ over their 4M. It was more of a general point about alternative bids that some players might choose with this hand type (and therefore would be suitable as poll choices). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMB1 Posted June 1, 2012 Report Share Posted June 1, 2012 I wasn't being too serious: I was intending 3NT as to play, based on a long minor, and ambivalent about outside stops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveMoe Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 I chose 5♣ assuming ♣ come in with no loser opposite partner's average length in that suit. Adding one winner from partner makes 11 tricks for us. Usually vulnerable 4th position opening bids at the 3/4/5 level are for the exact number of tricks we expect to take. I am choosing the 5 level here because I don't want opponents finding a valuable sacrifice at the 5 level in a major. It might also get us to 6♣ if partner has 2 aces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quantumcat Posted June 2, 2012 Report Share Posted June 2, 2012 3♣ because that's exactly what I have - 4th seat pre-empts are usually a decent hand (13-15 HCP) that ask partner to bid game with a fit and medium amount of HCP or any maximum passed hand. They are both useful for getting to game with a bit less than game values (when pard has a nice fit) and they keep the opponents from making an easy 1 or 2-level overcall and finding a sacrifice or just competing, or telling each other the killing lead. This is usually only applicable to 2♥ or 2♠ openings in 4th seat, but if you and your partner already have an understanding about those then he should figure out what the 3♣ opening is. Depending on pard's hand he might pass, bid 4 or 5♣, or bid 3NT. I would expect with a fitting honour and some kings and queens he might bid 3NT, with a small singleton or doubleton club but some aces he might bid 4 or 5♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perko90 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 I voted for 3♣'s (not a pre-empt, but a descriptive bid). I have no problem with 5♣'s either (any A in dummy gives you a shot). Heck, even a 4NT opener could be considered (assuming 5C = 0). If ptr has the magic 2 bullet hand and xx support, 6C is a good play. 1♣ is definitely last choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmnka447 Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 No need to preempt in 4th seat with a normal preempt, so the bid should be descriptive. 3 ♣ looks fine to me as a bid defining my strength and approximate playing strength. The problem with 1 ♣ is that the opponents may have the opportunity show a major holding via a low level overcall. Since both opponents have passed, it will be more difficult to compete over 3 ♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted June 7, 2012 Report Share Posted June 7, 2012 1♣. No need to pull the ripcord and do anything strange. I expect my opponents to bid some majors, but its also possible we may have clear seas to 3N or even slam. What are people rebidding after 1♣ - (pass / bid) - 1M - (pass); - ? For once I totally agree with Phil (mainly because he's not doing something genius :P). Just open 1C and bid normally. We can always compete to 4C if necessary, why open it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszes Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 I am hoping p will put me in 6 with 2 aces else i am happy to try5c. I do not want to give the opps the opportunity to maybe find a great save in 5/6 of a major so opening 1c seems terrible to me with this close to zero defense hand. 3n from p side might workbut the risk of opps finding majors is too great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikl_plkcc Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 1♣ is terrible. The opponents are very likely to enter the auction and find their major suit game. 3♣ and 4♣ are not good either. Partner will raise according to trump length, not general strength. I have 9.5 tricks already, I just hope that partner can give one to two side suit tricks and make the 5♣. At the first or second seat, I would open this 1♣ and bid constructively; at the third seat, this is a definite 5♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanor Fow Posted June 8, 2012 Report Share Posted June 8, 2012 As mentioned earlier in the thread, why are you worried about a major suit game making, when you're obvoiusly not willing to sell out to it anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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