Jump to game rebid after 2/1

[dboxley]

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MP's 2/1 100% GF. Apportion the blame and what are the worst bids?

[the_clown]

South 100%, passing 4♠ looks completely obvious. The rest of the auction looks reasonable.

[aguahombre]

Having played 2/1 g.f. for about 45 years, now, I can't remember ever jumping to 4S as a rebid. If it was meant as some kind of a picture, that would not be the picture I would choose. With a void in pard's minor and 3 in each of righty's alleged suits, I don't expect further competition and would just rebid 2S, then 3 spades, etc.

 

Hard to assess how bad 5S was, since I have no idea what south thought 4S was.

[stevenagy]

4♠ seems fine. 5♠ seems optimistic. I like to play jumps to game in gf auctions as no slam interest, my hand might have been downgraded by the bidding.

[Phil]

4♠ isn't my choice, but 5♠ is strange.

[kayin801]

I'd just rebid 2♠ and 3♠, I want better spades for a 4♠ rebid in this situation (put the heart Q into spades). 5♠ is horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible based on how I play a 4♠ rebid here, but it just seems that N and S aren't on the same wavelength as to what 4♠ showed.

 

I also find 2♦ instead of 2♥ strange. Yes, I understand the intentions, but sometimes our best game is in a 5-3 heart fit! And it's gonna be harder to show that length after our original bid of 2♦.

[dboxley]

I'd just rebid 2♠ and 3♠, I want better spades for a 4♠ rebid in this situation (put the heart Q into spades). 5♠ is horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible based on how I play a 4♠ rebid here, but it just seems that N and S aren't on the same wavelength as to what 4♠ showed.

 

I also find 2♦ instead of 2♥ strange. Yes, I understand the intentions, but sometimes our best game is in a 5-3 heart fit! And it's gonna be harder to show that length after our original bid of 2♦.

 

Just exactly how do you play a 4S rebid here? I think that is the crux of the matter.

 

As far as responding 2H, how do you forsee the auction proceeding? The one rebid I would not like to hear is 3H. You do realize that if pd has 3 card support you are going to play hearts no matter what the correct contract is. Of course you could always rebid 3NT over 3H (unless you are playing Serious) saying "partner, I know I bid 2H but it was a bad bid". The flip side , of course, is that unless pd has 4 hearts you are going to miss a heart fit, but the only time a 2H response is correct is when partner has exactly 3 hearts AND hearts is the correct strain. I would like to do a simulation...

[gszes]

there is no reason to rush to judgement with a 4s

bid. The suit has a ton of holes and you need help

from p for spades to be a reasonable trump choice.

 

There is no reason 3n or clubs cant be the best contracts.

save your jumps in 2/1 for highly descriptive and safe

bids. KQJ9xxx Axx void xxx would be a reasonable 4s bid

1 loser opposite a singleton or a bit of luck opposite a

void.

 

start with 2s rebid. This bid alone goes a long way toward

describing your hand. Your void opposite p dia suit is a bad

thing tread gingerly.

[SteveMoe]

As many have mentioned, 2♠ is sufficient for the first rebid - the ♦ void suggests going slow. We have aa potential misfit. I woudl rebid ♠ twice and expect to have partner raise me to game with a singleton honor.

 

A 4♠ jump rebid after partner's 2♦ would show a hand something like ♠AKJ8543 ♥3 ♦K32 ♣94 - a self-sufficient but not running suit that can play well opposite a singleton or void in partner's hand plus no useful values outside the pointed suits. Using up that much bidding space means we're not interested in slam unless partner has extras in the suits west has already bid...

 

5♠ is obscure but is best interpreted as a trump quality ask. Holding a stiff trump A, this seems wierd at best.

[MrAce]

I would choose 4♠ as the worst bid in this auction. I dont like 5♠ either though.

[Yu18772]

I play 4♠ as the weakest possible hand not to open 4♠, but it must be a GOOD suit...

So I am with the rest - 2♠,3♠. 5♠ is 100% blame.

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gifYu

[dake50]

Every fiber in my being tries for a penalty

bonanza with North's hand. C-AJ + HQ + D-void

screams misfit!! PASS!

Can I not trust partner?! Will he try/allow for

penalties against 3C,3H?

Or bid on if offensive hand?

He made a GF 2/1 after all.

4S suggests DKx with long spades, not side stuff.

Not a defensive monster against 3C,3H.

Having suggested spades 1-loser (here SA)

AND offensive strength (here DK),

5S then is reasonable - SA +DAQJxx looks

like tricks and controls.

[rhm]

Just exactly how do you play a 4S rebid here? I think that is the crux of the matter.

Fast arrival makes little sense when partner is unlimited in a game forcing auction. Therfor most experts recommend picture bidding in such scenarios.

If you agree with this, a sensible meaning for jumping to game in the suit opened is, that apart from an excellent self sufficient suit opener honors are all in the suits bid by the partnership and opener has no control in the unbid suits. Something like

 

♠AKJTxx, ♥xx, ♦Axx, ♣xx might be suitable.

 

Note, that this puts partner in an excellent position to decide, whether to pass or continue.

 

Opposite the actual South hand, I can not construct a single hand, which would be able to jump to 4♠ on the second round, fulfilling these criteria.

The best I can come up with is ♠KQJTxxx,♥Qx,♦Kx,♥Qx, but I do not like it. The queens provide no control, but are honors in side suits.

 

The actual bidding contradicts its own philosophy:

You play 2/1, presumably to keep the bidding low with strong hands and be able to gauge the combined potential of both hands.

Then North decides to preempt his partner, who has no clue what his bid means.

The result is a hopeless 5♠ contract.

 

I do not care for South continuing over 4♠ (I would pass), but I would blame North for the disaster.

North should take a beginner class "What is a sensible strategy in bidding", far more important than learning the latest conventional gadgets.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[mikl_plkcc]

North's 4♠ is to be blamed. IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE IN A G/F AUCTION EVEN WHEN NOT VIEWED BY AN EXPERT! I would rebid 3♠ to show a 7-card suit.

[Free]

4S is very poor in a gf context, but even so it should show some minimum hand with long spades and no diamond support. South's 5S bid just shows that he doesn't have a clue about basic bidding principles.

 

If this is a well established partnership I blame North because he should know partner won't get it right. Otherwise I blame south for just being stupid.

[aguahombre]

4S is very poor in a gf context, but even so it should show some minimum hand with long spades and no diamond support. South's 5S bid just shows that he doesn't have a clue about basic bidding principles.

 

If this is a well established partnership I blame North because he should know partner won't get it right. Otherwise I blame south for just being stupid.

Again, this is the problem:

 

Once you establish that, in a 2/1 context, extreme unnecessary jumps which waste all the space 2/1 is supposed to allow should be avoided unless they carry a quite specific message ----then you can no longer be judgemental about a continuation thereafter. You do not know how the jump was interpreted.

 

It is obvious that if South knew North's 4♠ jump could look like what he had, then South was wrong to continue. But, before I would use such terms as "stupid" or "clueless about bidding principles", it would be nice to know what South thought he was facing.

 

For us, all the hands with KQJ and 7+ length, plus a a certain number of outside primes, would have been opened differently...so there is no descriptive use for the 4S jump. However, South is not me and it is unfair to assume he bid 5S without some expectation for the meaning of 4S which would make 5S reasonable.

[jogs]

South 100%. West's double says suits are breaking badly. South has poor spade support and too many losers in hearts.

[kayin801]

Just exactly how do you play a 4S rebid here? I think that is the crux of the matter.

 

As far as responding 2H, how do you forsee the auction proceeding? The one rebid I would not like to hear is 3H. You do realize that if pd has 3 card support you are going to play hearts no matter what the correct contract is. Of course you could always rebid 3NT over 3H (unless you are playing Serious) saying "partner, I know I bid 2H but it was a bad bid". The flip side , of course, is that unless pd has 4 hearts you are going to miss a heart fit, but the only time a 2H response is correct is when partner has exactly 3 hearts AND hearts is the correct strain. I would like to do a simulation...

 

As a lot of others have said, it should be a picture bid. I play it as a hand that is too good for a 4♠ preempt, so 7 cards to 3 honors or 8 cards to 2 honors in spades and enough outside values to make it too good for the preempt. With a much better hand I'd rather go slowly since we're already in a GF auction; 3♠ should show significant extras and a great spade suit, neither of which we have. Otherwise just start with 2♠ and wait and see what happens.

 

Re 2♥: Sometimes when partner raises our hearts they have Qxxxx, AKx, xx, Axx, a modest hand where 4♥ should play very well. I know I've loaded the example by giving the hand AK of hearts and crappy spades but even with some weaker heart holdings it's not like game is hopeless.

[rsteele]

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MP's 2/1 100% GF. Apportion the blame and what are the worst bids?

I assume that most will agree that the North hand is not appopriate for a 4 spade call. I use 4 Spades as a picture bid showing good but not solid spades plus a high diamond honor. I also assume that most will find 5 spades as inappropriate but I would like to fixate on a meaning for that bid. It is obviously a slam try and so if 4 spades denies a control in both hearts and clubs the south hand should control both. J, AXX, AQJXX, AXX North with the spade ace and KXX in diamonds should try 6 diamonds as south may well have a 6 cd diamond suit.

[dboxley]

This has been a very instructive discussion. Now I will fess up. I was south and bid 5S which I now think was a terrible bid. I pictured partner with KQJTxxx? ? ? ? and for some reason thought hearts was the key suit (temporary insanity) so I thought I was asking for a heart control. If I really wanted to make a slam try I should have bid 5C. But the point is I shouldn't want to make a slam try at all, if we miss a slam then I am blameless. I don't like partner's 4S bid but that's no reason tor me to do something ridiculous. Thanks all.

[han]

[temporary insanity part skipped] But the point is I shouldn't want to make a slam try at all, if we miss a slam then I am blameless.

 

I don't understand this sentence. Are you saying that instead of making winning calls you should try to make calls that you can't be blamed for afterwards in case they turn out badly?

[phil_20686]

I don't understand this sentence. Are you saying that instead of making winning calls you should try to make calls that you can't be blamed for afterwards in case they turn out badly?

 

I think he is saying that his partner is scholastically insane, and therefore he cannot be expected to correct for it.

 

If his partner was reliable insane then you might be able to correct for it some of the time.

[han]

OK, I thought he might be saying that the ultimate goal of playing bridge is to be blameless in the postmortem.

[jillybean]

edited

 

The 4♠ bid does not belong in this forum.

[han]

I do not agree with you jillybean, and besides, I hope that you were joking?

 

Many expert partnerships do not have good agreements about what a jump to 4S means here. Playing it as this kind of hand (long broken spade suit, minimal hand) is not so unreasonable, but perhaps playing it as a very strong 7-card spade suit in a minimal hand is better. Perhaps the best agreement depends on the hands you open 4S with (or 4D, if you play namyats).

 

Seems like a good discussion for this forum.