No re-opening, p?

[Bbradley62]

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M52643,~~M52641,~~M52642|st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S479KAH47JAD3C7TK%2CSTH5689TD79TQC25Q%2CS36H2QD25JAC389JA%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%205%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7CMinor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7COne-level%20overcall%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%208-17%20HCP%3B%209-19%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv]Yes, I could have simply bid 3N, but... isn't it incumbent on opener to protect a partner who might be trying to collect a huge penalty?

[the hog]

[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M52643,~~M52641,~~M52642|st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S479KAH47JAD3C7TK%2CSTH5689TD79TQC25Q%2CS36H2QD25JAC389JA%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%205%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7CMinor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7COne-level%20overcall%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%208-17%20HCP%3B%209-19%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv]Yes, I could have simply bid 3N, but... isn't it incumbent on opener to protect a partner who might be trying to collect a huge penalty?

 

The Nth hand is an obvious pass. Serves you right for not making a -ve double.

[cloa513]

What great penalty position- nonvul versus vul- you want to be in game even if they go down a few doubled.

[Bbradley62]

Since this is the GIB Discussion forum, let's pretend the hand was:[hv=lin=pn|bbradley62,~~M52643,~~M52641,~~M52642|st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S479KAH47JD34C7TK%2CSTH5689TD79TQC25Q%2CS36H2QD25JAC389JA%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%205%7Csv%7Cn%7Cmb%7C1C%7Can%7CMinor%20suit%20opening%20--%203%2B%20C%3B%2011-21%20HCP%3B%2012-22%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7C1S%7Can%7COne-level%20overcall%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%208-17%20HCP%3B%209-19%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv]and South made the decision that he hoped to defend 1♠x.

[AyunuS]

How is that different than the original hand?

[Bbradley62]

How is that different than the original hand?

I switched ♥A and ♦4. The other two posters who commented on the original hand blamed South (me), so I attempted to show a hand where it would be more reasonable for South to pass.

[AyunuS]

Well, I'd still pass if I were north. Bidding or doubling would show more strength than north has, and then it'd worry that you'd jump to 3NT or something if it bids again and you have stuff. And if north bids again and you have nothing, then it can't make the bid. From north's point of view, I don't see any reason to bid in this scenario.

[fuburules3]

Well, I'd still pass if I were north. Bidding or doubling would show more strength than north has, and then it'd worry that you'd jump to 3NT or something if it bids again and you have stuff. And if north bids again and you have nothing, then it can't make the bid. From north's point of view, I don't see any reason to bid in this scenario.

 

I don't think reopening necessarily shows extras in this auction. For instance, there are some pairs who have an agreement to never let opponents play at the one level undoubled. I don't really like that agreement, but the point that it is rarely right to let opponents play at one level is a good one (that I don't think GIB really gets).

 

Also, playing negative doubles, I think there should be some attempt by opener to reopen with hands that would pass a penalty double.

[the hog]

I would bid 2NT with your reposted hand at this vulnerability. You do realise that if Nth re opens with a x this shows h tolerance. Nth does not have H tolerance. If it goes

1C (1S) P (P)

X (P)

 

would you not bid 2H on xxxx Jxxx Kxx xx

Now you are in an awful position.

 

You appear to want to play compulsory re opening Xs. No good player would re open on the Nth hand.

[Bbradley62]

You appear to want to play compulsory re opening Xs.

No, I would expect North to reopen with 2♣ due to his lack of hearts. But yes, I want to play compulsory reopening if it appears plausible that responder is hoping for the reopening double.

[Stephen Tu]

Reopening doesn't show extras on this auction. But doing it with the doubleton heart is the problematic thing, it's open to debate whether one should reopen, perhaps this should be posted as a poll in one of the other forum categories. If partner bids hearts, aren't particularly happy, nor are you happy if reopening allow the opps to find a superior heart fit (perhaps a pair playing split-range michaels?).

If the hand were 1345 though, reopening would be automatic at the 1 level.

 

I definitely wouldn't have trapped passed at this vul, it's too expensive if partner passes it out, and not even clear you don't want to just declare 3nt anyway. I don't like "mandatory" reopening doubles. When you play negative doubles, you should be doing it with the knowledge that in trade for the zillion times you have a neg double and would otherwise be without a decent bid, you are giving up some # of penalty situations. If you try to recapture them all by forcing opener to reopen anytime it's merely plausible for responder to be trap-passing, you are going to put yourself in a lot of trouble when partner passed because he was weak, not because he wanted to penalize the opps. Sometimes when you have a potential juicy penalty you have to pass on the situation and just bid your normal 3nt.

 

I'm less concerned about GIB not reopening this auction, but more concerned about auctions like the one I had the other day:

1c-1h-p-1nt;

p-p-x-p;

p-2h-x-p;

3c?

 

Here I had trapped passed with both heart length and a stiff club (at favorable vul, much less risky than at unfavorable, since multiple vul undertricks can compensate a lot for nv game, that didn't make due to misfit when I tried 3nt later). But the doubles were poorly defined, didn't show heart length, even the second one was described as "2+ h". Passing an overcall then coming back in with double should definitely show the trap pass hand.

[the hog]

No, I would expect North to reopen with 2♣ due to his lack of hearts. But yes, I want to play compulsory reopening if it appears plausible that responder is hoping for the reopening double.

 

You really want him to bid 2C on that horrible suit? You are asking to go for a number.