Has the time come to end Ladies only tournaments

[Fluffy]

Sylvia Mello and Paula David bypassed the women series and won the south american open pairs championship yesterday

[Vampyr]

I like Yu's idea of mixed events, but wouldn't restrict it to pairs - mixed teams could also be offered, though whether that should mean each partnership must be mixed, or a team could have a male pair and a female pair, or how it should work with a team of 6, I don't know.

 

In Europe, mixed teams must consist of mixed partnerships. Here in England mixed teams means you must have at least one man and one woman in the team (and then teams that have two women are told "oh, you must have misunderstood the rules" :rolleyes: ). Both ways are fun for something a little different. I have never seen an event in which you must field a male pair and a female pair, but it sounds very festive.

 

With a team of six you just follow the conditions of contest with the four players who are playing a particular match or segment.

[billw55]

This is a simple issue of supply and demand. The time to end Ladies' events is when hardly anyone enters them anymore. Per barmar's comment, we may be getting there fairly soon. Or maybe not, who knows what the future holds?

 

As for reasons that most top players are men, to me this is obviously cultural. In most cultures, girls are socialized against competition (and particularly against competition with boys), with the predictable result that far fewer women than men end up with highly competitive tendencies. More frequent success in competition thus comes as no surprise, relative skills notwithstanding.

 

Furthermore, girls are socialized against analytical and technical disciplines. For example, while women have outnumbered men in university admissions for some years, the demographics of hard science and engineering programs remain majority male.

[billw55]

In Europe, mixed teams must consist of mixed partnerships. Here in England mixed teams means you must have at least one man and one woman in the team ...

This is a total sidetrack, but your syntax suggests that at least where you are from, the term "Europe" is understood to exclude England - and presumably Ireland and Scotland too? I am wondering if that is the general usage on your side of the pond. Whereas many of us on the west side think of the UK as part of Europe.

[RunemPard]

RIP all of the fish who have been needlessly fried and served w/ a side of french fries. It is a shame that you had to suffer such a fate, rather than the honor of becoming a perfectly prepared sushi dish. :P

[Siegmund]

The time to end ladies' events was the same day we ended men's events. If you want to run both, fine, if you want to run mixed and unmixed, fine... if you want to run only one of the above, not fine, by me.

 

It has been a non-issue anywhere I have played (having seen the last ladies-only event dry up and blow away circa 2000.) There was still a mixed pairs game at a few sectionals I've been to. It was usually necessary to allow a few unmixed pairs into the field to get all the LOLs paired off. Have never seen mixed anywhere except as a fun casual game.

[TimG]

I sincerely believe that what primarily keeps women only events alive in the ACBL is money for women playing as pros on teams in women's events.

There will be women's events in ACBL (and USBF) as long as there are women's World Championship events to qualify for. (I realize this is not separate from your contention that professional fees are keeping women's events alive.)

[ArtK78]

A little background.

 

Mens' and Womens' (sometime referred to as Ladies') events existed for many years. As far as I know, they date back to the origins of the ACBL and other bridge organizations.

 

In the 1980s, a group of prominent women players objected to the fact that on the days that there were Mens' and Womens' events at regionals and NABCs, they could not play with a partner of their choosing (in the case of mixed pairs) or the fact that they were relegated to what they, in their own words, deemed to be an inferior event. Litigation was threatened against the ACBL to require the league to open the Mens' events to women. Rather than litigate the matter, the ACBL chose to eliminate Mens' events and to hold Open events at the same time that Womens' events were held.

 

Mixed pairs and team events have always been rare. Of course there is the Masters Mixed Teams at the Summer NABC, and there is a National Mixed Pairs event. I have rarely seen mixed events at regionals. Back in the day when any event held at a Regional tournament could only be held once during the tournament, longer Regionals had to get creative in varying the events held, and Mixed Pairs and Teams might appear on the schedule (peruse an old ACBL Bulletin and look at the schedule of events at Los Angeles Bridge Week, a 10 day regional, from back in the 70s or 80s). Los Angeles Bridge Week was about the only time one could find unmixed pairs or team events (which, as was mentioned earlier, technically still exist). Locally, there is usually a mixed pairs event held at our local (Philadelphia) sectional around Valentine's Day. But other than that, they really have disappeared.

 

In poker, there are womens events. However, under various state laws (such as New Jersey) the casinos cannot discriminate based on gender. So, if a man wants to enter a womens' event, he can do so, and it does happen. These men are usually shunned by the rest of the players, as this behavior is deem inappropriate. But there is nothing the casino can do to stop them from playing in the womens event.

 

My poker league (World Tavern Poker) is having its Open Tournament starting Sunday, June 10, at Harrah's in Atlantic City. On the schedule for Tuesday morning, June 12, are Mens' and Ladies' events. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that WTP has held Mens' and Ladies' events at the Open. It will be interesting to see if any of the men decide to play in the Ladies' event. I don't believe it will happen.

[Bbradley62]

Here in the Deep South, where progress is usually slower than in other places, Unit 114 held (Georgia) state championships in Men's Pairs, Women's Pairs, Men's Swiss and Women's Swiss at sectionals as late as 1993.

[mycroft]

I know that until about 5 years ago, almost every regional I went to had a women's pairs along an open pairs. But then again, I used to go to regionals that hadn't succumbed completely to KO disease - we'd *get* 3-5 sections of open pairs and 1-2 of women's.

[ArtK78]

Deleted

[paulg]

This is a total sidetrack, but your syntax suggests that at least where you are from, the term "Europe" is understood to exclude England - and presumably Ireland and Scotland too? I am wondering if that is the general usage on your side of the pond. Whereas many of us on the west side think of the UK as part of Europe.

Mixed teams in Scotland means two mixed partnerships. There is one weekend dedicated to mixed events, with both pairs and teams.

 

British devolution, in terms of bridge, happened in 1999 and we (well, some of us, if old enough, despite having a London accent but still living in Scotland) will get to vote on leaving the UK properly in 2013 or 2014. England and Wales remain close, in terms of bridge regulations and policies if not in spirit, but Scotland is quite different. Scotland and Wales both run very friendly congresses while England runs the more competitive events.

 

However Stefanie may have been thinking of the Hubert Phillips Bowl in England with is a Mixed Pivot event, which is subtly different from a mixed team.

 

When anyone in the UK talks about 'Europe', it means those people across the Channel. It rarely includes the UK.

[Phil]

I've spoken to one woman player that I have known for over 25 years about this. She would be in anyones top 20 women's list in the world I think. She's kind of embarrassed about her success in women's events. Yet, she continues to play, and profit. For some women sponsors, this is a great avenue to hire a good team, and win a national or even represent your country.

 

In 45 days, I'll be in Philadelphia for the GNT-A. Should I be embarrassed about competing in a event limited by masterpoints? Certainly if my other team won the superflight, I would have enjoyed going more, but by winning the A, I get a little subsidy for a trip and thats fine. If we win, I'll feel good about it, but I'm not checking off any life goals in the process.

 

One of my ex-partners won the NAP-B's about 15 years ago. He calls it 'his national win'. For the unwashed, he did win a national, and I get to give him crap about it :P However, he does rationalize it by saying even if he never does anything else, he's got that.

 

I am a little cynical about players that continue to play in and win flighted events. How many mini-spingolds or flighted GNTs do you have to win to feel good about yourself? I suppose I could say the same about women's events, but as long as a top women's pair is going to get hired for the Wagar, I don't see them turning down the money.

 

I have no problem with Ladies-only events. I do have a problem with countries scheduling their Open events and, worse, Open trials to take place at the same time as such events.

 

+1. If I were pope, I would schedule the various Women's KO's so they would not conflict with the Spingold / Vandy / Reisinger. Perhaps run them like the GNT's - where they start BEFORE the NABC. As long as a top women's pair can get hired for a women's team that runs at the same time as an open event, you'll see this.

[Vampyr]

 

However Stefanie may have been thinking of the Hubert Phillips Bowl in England with is a Mixed Pivot event, which is subtly different from a mixed team.

 

 

Yes and the midweek mixed pivot teams in Brighton.

[nige1]

Scotland has enjoyable Open/Mens/Womens/Mixed Teams/Pairs events :) We also have great Individual events :)

[dburn]

When anyone in the UK talks about 'Europe', it means those people across the Channel. It rarely includes the UK.

A possibly apocryphal headline in a 19th-century English newspaper read "Fog In Channel - Europe Isolated". And quite right too.

[Vampyr]

A possibly apocryphal headline in a 19th-century English newspaper read "Fog In Channel - Europe Isolated". And quite right too.

 

Yes, I was thinking of that one too. There is another meaning of "Europe" in the UK, especially when it is pronounced with a look and tone of disgust -- the European Union.

[barmar]

I know they were reluctant, but didn't the UK join the EU?

[Statto]

I know they were reluctant, but didn't the UK join the EU?

We did, and I am still proud that we did. Some may disagree and have little pride in that fact, but they would be misguided IMAO.

 

The more common term that Brits use for the 'rest of Europe' is 'the continent', with standard adjective etc derivatives such as 'continental Europe'. At least those derivatives have survived since 2008. But yeah, there seems to be a feeling that we are part of Europe, but only partially, perhaps in a part-score like 2♠. :rolleyes:

[Quantumcat]

I'm quite glad there are women's events - when I am too old for youth, but still not quite good enough to be confident of getting into my state's Open ANC team, I can play in my state's Womens ANC team. In fact I feel quite sorry for average male youth players - when they get too old, they have to wait about 40 years until they are old enough for Seniors. That's a long time to wait to get to play in ANCs again! Although I have heard that Womens players are all gossipy and horrible (no actual experience on my part), and on Vugraph the commentators spend more time laughing about the stupid things the Womens players do rather than actual serious commentating, I would much rather play with/against them than not get to play at all!

 

Any woman who doesn't like women's events can always play in the equivalent Open events. I know a few people who always play in Open and wouldn't touch a women's event with a ten-foot pole. So really there should not be heated discussion either way - it has nothing to do with men, and any woman who doesn't like women's events doesn't have to play in them, and any women who enjoys higher-level events but isn't good enough for Open, so plays regularly in Women's, won't be complaining...

[jillybean]

I'm quite glad there are women's events - when I am too old for youth, but still not quite good enough to be confident of getting into my state's Open ANC team, I can play in my state's Womens ANC team.

 

Have you thought that if you spend your time in womens events that perhaps you may never get good enough to compete in the open events?

[paulg]

Have you thought that if you spend your time in womens events that perhaps you may never get good enough to compete in the open events?

I think that this should be a concern if you ONLY played in women's events. However as part of a balanced diet it can be very useful. Certainly most of the women I know who are trying to break into the open game (and occasionally succeeding) have found that the experience gained in playing at the Europeans and Olympiads on Women's teams is extremely valuable. They are used to these long events, playing as a team of six, and know the ups and downs that can happen over ten days, which is something NPCs are concerned about with first-time pairs.

[Finch]

I think that this should be a concern if you ONLY played in women's events. However as part of a balanced diet it can be very useful. Certainly most of the women I know who are trying to break into the open game (and occasionally succeeding) have found that the experience gained in playing at the Europeans and Olympiads on Women's teams is extremely valuable. They are used to these long events, playing as a team of six, and know the ups and downs that can happen over ten days, which is something NPCs are concerned about with first-time pairs.

 

Unless you are getting to the late stages of e.g. the Venice Cup I think playing women's bridge is very bad for your game. Admittedly I don't play womens' bridge at all, so perhaps I shouldn't comment, but I know a number of people (of both genders) who agree with me. There are so few decent women's teams around that in most events it becomes an exercise in extracting maximum imps from poor players rather than learning how to play against good players.

[paulg]

I think that this should be a concern if you ONLY played in women's events. However as part of a balanced diet it can be very useful. Certainly most of the women I know who are trying to break into the open game (and occasionally succeeding) have found that the experience gained in playing at the Europeans and Olympiads on Women's teams is extremely valuable. They are used to these long events, playing as a team of six, and know the ups and downs that can happen over ten days, which is something NPCs are concerned about with first-time pairs.

Unless you are getting to the late stages of e.g. the Venice Cup I think playing women's bridge is very bad for your game. Admittedly I don't play womens' bridge at all, so perhaps I shouldn't comment, but I know a number of people (of both genders) who agree with me. There are so few decent women's teams around that in most events it becomes an exercise in extracting maximum imps from poor players rather than learning how to play against good players.

I actually agree with you but it is a view that seems to be contrary to many of the pros who say that playing a lot of hands, almost whatever the standard, is good. On the other hand, my friends are not exactly dominating the women's scene at the European level so it should be a good stepping stone. And they are playing the Spingold rather than the Wagar when we go to the Nationals.

[Cthulhu D]

Have you thought that if you spend your time in womens events that perhaps you may never get good enough to compete in the open events?

 

I think there is two ways to attack this - play in the open events and only when the selection trials are up enter the last train women's qualifiers if you don't make the open (or are very unlikely to make the open), or play in women's events all the time. I see nothing wrong with plan A. It's not purely optimal in that you're not always playing in the strongest event available, but you'll generally be playing in strong events. Plan B sucks though.

 

There is also a difference between Australian and US tournaments here. Most Australian pair games seem to have one big field, then award the 'ladies' 'youth' 'mixed' etc prize to eligible pair with the highest result in the field - but in the swiss they can expect to come up against people competiting for the mens, open, mixed etc freely. So if your regular partner happens to be a women you can go for the ladies prize will still playing against the youth, novice, open etcetcetc.

 

So for example the national swiss pairs (there was a seperate restricted competition) with an open, men, women, mixed, novice and youth prize for the highest eligible pair in the overall rankings, but people competing for the mixed pairs would play male, female and mixed pairs. In this enviroment you don't have the problem you mention - if you and QuantumCat had of entered, you still could have come up against Justin Lall and the NZ youth he was playing with, or the eventual overall winners.

 

Teams events may be further stratified though.