Table-Hopping

[teal_lady]

It removes the enjoyment of the game for me (and for most of the people I play with and against) to have players stay 1 or 2 hands and then leave. Too much time is spent replacing them, instead of actually playing bridge. I submit this is Rude, Disruptive, and displaying traits of a 2 year old instead of a bridge player. Would love to see it slowed down (preferably stopped).

[Antrax]

I table hop, mostly when I feel I'm not a good match for the table for whatever reason. I don't consider myself rude.

[barmar]

Would love to see it slowed down (preferably stopped).

Keep track of the average number of hands played at each recent table, and delay joining a new table if they've been at more than N tables with less than M hands per table?

[SimonFa]

I table hop.

 

Whilst I have no problem playing with Novices I do object to playing with "experts" and "advanced" players who are really novices. This can take a couple of hands to manifest itself.

 

Also, no profile no play.

[SimonFa]

You can ask the host to set the table completion rate quite high. I usually set it to 97%. It can take a while but when you do get player they are usually the sort who stick around.

[barmar]

Leaving between hands shouldn't affect your completion rate.

[Antrax]

barmar, is your interest theoretic or do you plan on implementing a feature against players trying to use "help me find a game"?

[Cthulhu D]

It would be nice if you could get a per-exisitng partnership matchmade against another such partnership.

[Bbradley62]

It would be nice if you could get a per-exisitng partnership matchmade against another such partnership.

Choosing the "I have a partner. Take us to a table" button will frequently accomplish this.

[Cthulhu D]

Choosing the "I have a partner. Take us to a table" button will frequently accomplish this.

 

We do - the success rate is not as high as I might like :)

[barmar]

barmar, is your interest theoretic or do you plan on implementing a feature against players trying to use "help me find a game"?

I don't make the decisions about what features get implemented. But unless we can understand what's wanted, we can't even consider it. So I'm trying to get an idea of how you want define "table-hopping" in way that could be detected automatically, and what you want us to do to prevent it.

[timjand]

I don't make the decisions about what features get implemented. But unless we can understand what's wanted, we can't even consider it. So I'm trying to get an idea of how you want define "table-hopping" in way that could be detected automatically, and what you want us to do to prevent it.

 

I am not a new user exactly, but have played a bit recently after a long break. I am finding the behaviour frustrating. It seems commonplace for players simply to disappear if they are in a bad contract. The further implication is that if you click "Help me find a table", you often land in one of those vacated seats, in the midst of a hopeless contract.

 

Another time I was playing and declarer led a card to which I followed. Then he put up an undo request. I felt that as I had already played to the trick that was not possible, so I declined. He then repeats the undo request multiple times. Finally, his partner who is the host boots me from the table.

 

Not so much table hopping as table hopped!

 

Tim

[Antrax]

Yes, there are many idiots on BBO. BTW when you land in a hopeless contract, just play it out, it won't go on your record but the player who abandoned it.

Either that, or ask for a redeal. Better players normally agree to redeal as they don't care about getting silly "good" results.

[Zelandakh]

It seems commonplace for players simply to disappear if they are in a bad contract. The further implication is that if you click "Help me find a table", you often land in one of those vacated seats, in the midst of a hopeless contract.

 

Another time I was playing and declarer led a card to which I followed. Then he put up an undo request. I felt that as I had already played to the trick that was not possible, so I declined. He then repeats the undo request multiple times. Finally, his partner who is the host boots me from the table.

If you are at a table and someone leaves because they are in a bad contract then you can report it to abuse@bridgebase.com. Leaving midhand is considered a "serious offense" and the BBO staff will look into it, perhaps even suspending or barring the account in extreme cases. if you join a table with a hand in progress then it is perfectly acceptable to ask for a redeal. If the opps refuse to accept this then it is probably not table you want to be on anyway.

 

Similarly for undos. There are many players on BBO who allow no undos during play, while others always accept. A middle position that is (probably) better is to ask the player concerned whether they misclicked and to allow an undo if they say yes with special exceptions, such as on opening lead. If you find out later that the player did not misclick, or if they take advantage of knowing the exposed card in your hand, then it is simplest just to mark their profile with an appropriate comment and excuse yourself before the next hand. If you set yourself as table host you could also ask them to leave and boot them if they refuse.

 

Finally, things improve somewhat when you get to know a regular set of players to act as partners and opponents. Most of the problems of the MBC go away once you have settled games.

Edited July 20, 2012 by Gerardo
abuse@bbo.com -> abuse@bridgebase.com

[timjand]

If you are at a table and someone leaves because they are in a bad contract then you can report it to abuse@bbo.com. Leaving midhand is considered a "serious offense" and the BBO staff will look into it, perhaps even suspending or barring the account in extreme cases. if you join a table with a hand in progress then it is perfectly acceptable to ask for a redeal. If the opps refuse to accept this then it is probably not table you want to be on anyway.

 

I've found this so common that I would constantly be reporting it.

 

I'm not sure about the redeals either. Isn't that giving an advantage to the leaver, since the hand will never be completed? It seems unfair on the non-offending side who may have played well to get the advantageous position.

 

Similarly for undos. There are many players on BBO who allow no undos during play, while others always accept. A middle position that is (probably) better is to ask the player concerned whether they misclicked and to allow an undo if they say yes with special exceptions, such as on opening lead. If you find out later that the player did not misclick, or if they take advantage of knowing the exposed card in your hand, then it is simplest just to mark their profile with an appropriate comment and excuse yourself before the next hand. If you set yourself as table host you could also ask them to leave and boot them if they refuse.

 

This particular player apparently did not speak English, anyway did not reply when I asked the reason for the undo request.

 

Finally, things improve somewhat when you get to know a regular set of players to act as partners and opponents. Most of the problems of the MBC go away once you have settled games.

 

I certainly agree with this.

 

Tim

[mgoetze]

Choosing the "I have a partner. Take us to a table" button will frequently accomplish this.

And the frequency is what... 0.002% ?

[Heron]

It would be nice if you could get a per-exisitng partnership matchmade against another such partnership.

 

Agreed; lobby chat is/was a not-completely-awful way of getting that, but it's also getting killed off.

[uday]

Slightly off topic, but -

 

at one point we forced hands to be auto-redealt when someone bailed and someone else sat down.

 

As you know, one can't really complete a hand from the middle, with no knowledge of what happened on prior tricks. Yet, we received a number of complaints about this behaviour and decided to roll back the change.

 

Back to the main topic.

 

We're looking at the HMFAG ( help me find a game ) logic again. But lets ask this:

 

Someone clicks HMFAG. Where should he go if he's known to be a table hopper with (say) a 35% completion rate? to a table with other table hoppers? Or should we say 'Sorry, no tables available?'

 

U

[jillybean]

 

Someone clicks HMFAG. Where should he go if he's known to be a table hopper with (say) a 35% completion rate? to a table with other table hoppers? Or should we say 'Sorry, no tables available?'

 

U

 

Could you throw him to the lions?

 

Put him at the table with the lowest combined completion rate or with a partner with the lowest CR.

[Bbradley62]

We're looking at the HMFAG ( help me find a game ) logic again. But lets ask this:

 

Someone clicks HMFAG. Where should he go if he's known to be a table hopper with (say) a 35% completion rate? to a table with other table hoppers? Or should we say 'Sorry, no tables available?'

How about this: a player whose table-hopping reaches an "unacceptable" level (this could be measured as hand completion rate, or average hands played before leaving, or some combination thereof) loses the ability to use the "take me to the first seat available" function. He can still use the "list interesting tables" function, but since he has demonstrated an inability to sit still, he should be required to pre-screen the tables before sitting down at one.

[stevenagy]

Slightly off topic, but -

 

at one point we forced hands to be auto-redealt when someone bailed and someone else sat down.

 

As you know, one can't really complete a hand from the middle, with no knowledge of what happened on prior tricks. Yet, we received a number of complaints about this behaviour and decided to roll back the change.

 

Back to the main topic.

 

We're looking at the HMFAG ( help me find a game ) logic again. But lets ask this:

 

Someone clicks HMFAG. Where should he go if he's known to be a table hopper with (say) a 35% completion rate? to a table with other table hoppers? Or should we say 'Sorry, no tables available?'

 

U

 

If someone has a significantly low completion rate, would placing a timer on their next sit-down help discourage the bad behaviour enough? For example, a player with that awful 35% completion rate gets into a bad board and quits the table, hits the HMFAG button, and then, 30 seconds later they are placed at a table. When they get their completion rate back up to an acceptable level (60%?), the delay disappears.

[Antrax]

Slightly off topic, but -

 

at one point we forced hands to be auto-redealt when someone bailed and someone else sat down.

 

As you know, one can't really complete a hand from the middle, with no knowledge of what happened on prior tricks. Yet, we received a number of complaints about this behaviour and decided to roll back the change.

Of course you got complaints, because this encourages a deliberately poor player to ditch bad boards and not have them reflected on his "my hands" page.

You COULD let a new player review the play for a limited time after sitting down, but it's probably more work than it's worth.

[edit] or have some sort of "procedural penalty" for such redealt boards to the player who ditched, and keep the auto-redeal

 

Are there really players with completion rate less than 50%, or is it a purely theoretical problem?

[quiddity]

Back to the main topic.

 

We're looking at the HMFAG ( help me find a game ) logic again. But lets ask this:

 

Someone clicks HMFAG. Where should he go if he's known to be a table hopper with (say) a 35% completion rate? to a table with other table hoppers? Or should we say 'Sorry, no tables available?'

 

U

 

People table-hop because they are not enjoying the game. In many cases they are not enjoying the game because the partner and/or opponents are incompatible. How about trying to fix this obvious problem with the site instead of blaming the players and trying to punish them? The table hopping is not the problem, it is a symptom.

[barmar]

People table-hop because they are not enjoying the game. In many cases they are not enjoying the game because the partner and/or opponents are incompatible. How about trying to fix this obvious problem with the site instead of blaming the players and trying to punish them? The table hopping is not the problem, it is a symptom.

I think most people who do this jump as soon as someone makes a little mistake. It has little to do with compatibility (can you really tell if you're compatible after only a couple of hands?), they're just expecting too much from a random pick-up partner.

 

We are looking into ways to make HMFAG smarter about pairing people, but I think the real problem is that players set their expectations too high, so they're setting themselves up for disappointment.

[Antrax]

Not sure what you're basing this on, barmar. Is this a statistic you can figure out from looking at server logs?