Need advice regarding a weak 1NT

[awm]

There are some general problems with weak notrump methods. For example this auction came up for my expert opponents recently:

 

1c-(3h)-all pass. Opener had 16 balanced 2344 and responder had a 3253 9-count. 3nt and 5d both made for +400, and 3h was two off for +200 on best defense. Who was supposed to bid? Obviously passing did not work, but if responder bids and finds an unbalanced hand with clubs opposite you may not like the result!

[benlessard]

There are some general problems with weak notrump methods. For example this auction came up for my expert opponents recently:

 

1c-(3h)-all pass. Opener had 16 balanced 2344 and responder had a 3253 9-count. 3nt and 5d both made for +400, and 3h was two off for +200 on best defense. Who was supposed to bid? Obviously passing did not work, but if responder bids and finds an unbalanced hand with clubs opposite you may not like the result!

Once again I think this is a poor counter example. I am of course glad to play a weak Nt here. Clearly responder erred by not doubling wich is safe here. My guess is that responder is a bit lacking experience and had Qx of hearts and didnt count it.

 

If opener has a strong NT hes going to bid 3S or 4S wich will be in a 4/3 but your going to have a chance to make it because of the extras values. If partner has 4 trumps he can pass easily for a decent penalty or bid 3NT and have at least 24 and not 22 like it happen frequently playing strong NT.

 

If he doesnt have a strong NT and doesnt have 4S you clearly want to be in 4C unless opener is like 2425,3415 and dont want to pass. If you cant make 4C its highly probable they make 3H anyway unless they have a bigger S fit. Also note that some playing standard better minors are able to open 1D with 44 in the minors making it even safer for them when the suits are reversed (2344 vs 3235)

 

Its doesnt get really better than this for the Weak Nt, but if you start passing with values, being short in the opponent suit and have trumps support for partner no bridge system is going to do the job for you.

[MickyB]

So an unbalanced minimum with a heart stop can't bid 3NT over the negative double?

[gordontd]

There are some general problems with weak notrump methods. For example this auction came up for my expert opponents recently:

 

1c-(3h)-all pass. Opener had 16 balanced 2344 and responder had a 3253 9-count. 3nt and 5d both made for +400, and 3h was two off for +200 on best defense. Who was supposed to bid? Obviously passing did not work, but if responder bids and finds an unbalanced hand with clubs opposite you may not like the result!

Would this have been any different if, in a strong NT context, opener had 18 & responder 7 or 8?

[straube]

Would this have been any different if, in a strong NT context, opener had 18 & responder 7 or 8?

 

I disagree with the logic here. awm was giving an example where opening a 15-17 with a minor might have been responsible for a bad result when opening 1N with that same 15-17 would have given a good result. We're not considering 18-19 pt balanced ranges here and yes, in a natural system, this range is occasionally/rarely vulnerable to preemption. Btw, open that 18-19 with a strong club and responder might be able to bid with those 7 or 8 points.

[gordontd]

awm was giving an example where opening a 15-17 with a minor might have been responsible for a bad result when opening 1N with that same 15-17 would have given a good result.

I could give you an example where opening a minor allows you to reach a superior 4-4 major fit, rather than playing in 1NT with 15 opposite 6, and I expect you could give me a counter-example where strong NTers reach their major fit with 12 opposite 10. None of this is really significant.

[straube]

I could give you an example where opening a minor allows you to reach a superior 4-4 major fit, rather than playing in 1NT with 15 opposite 6, and I expect you could give me a counter-example where strong NTers reach their major fit with 12 opposite 10. None of this is really significant.

 

I wasn't arguing that particular point.

 

I've been arguing that it's more likely to be preempted out of a game or other contract when holding a strong NT but playing weak NTs. There are advantages to both weak and strong NT and I think this is a specific advantage of playing strong NT.

[awm]

It's often difficult to handle hands with mild extras in competition. The general situation is where responder has around 8-9 points and doesn't want to risk bidding game opposite what could easily be a 12-count, whereas opener has a bit extra at around 16 but doesn't want to risk being in game opposite partner's 6-count (or even less).

 

Obviously this can happen regardless of notrump range, but the frequency of opener holding the annoying 16 or so is obviously much higher if you play weak notrump. Of course, you can decide that responder will just play opener for a strong notrump (rather than playing opener for a 12-count), but this means you will often hang yourself when opener does have a (unbalanced) 12-count. Playing weak notrump, 1m opener has fairly even odds of holding 12-14 (unbalanced), or holding 15-17, which means responder is quite often guessing after a preempt. Playing strong notrump, opener almost always has 12-14 (balanced or unbalanced) so the problems are much rarer.

 

I'm not the only one who thinks this is an issue -- Meckwell have taken to playing a strong 2NT for much the same reason. Over 1♣-(bid) responder assumes a minimum (here 16, for a strong club) and they sometimes got in trouble when opener had about a king extra.

[Wackojack]

A few thoughts on this:

 

 

(2) You may want to consider how opener shows the strong notrump in competition. For example, it is popular to play 1♣-(Pass)-1♠-(2♥)-Dbl as showing the strong notrump rather than as a support double. If you don't use this type of approach, you can easily miss games in competitive sequences like this.

 

I much prefer playing strong no trump. However, I play 12-14 no trump and support doubles with 2 partners. So taking the example:

1♣-(p)- 1♠-(2♥

p - (p) - ?

 

As responder you have:

♠ KQJxx

♥ xx

♦xxxx

♣ Kx

 

You know that partner either has a strong no trump with a doubleton spade or a minimum unbalanced hand with clubs. Clearly game may be missed if you pass. So you double for take-out. Can this go wrong? If partner has a strong no trump,he is well placed to leave the double in for penalties or go for game in no trumps. If partner is min with clubs he is also well placed to play in 2♠or 3♣or even 3♦ if partner opened with 1345 distribution.

 

So how do I fare if I am weaker, say take away K♣? Yes then I may have missed out on a part score battle if partner has a strong no trump, but this is hardly a crucial disadvantage. In fact I cannot think up any examples where I am really disadvantaged by playing 12-14 no trump and support doubles.

 

Put me right?

[Lurpoa]

Who cares where I posted..honestly no clue which to put it in. "Natural" is a matter of opinion to begin with! :o To me "natural" is more of how closely a system is to the original version. Being that a 12-14 NT alters the bidding in various ways, I considered it to be "unnatural". But then again, could this be a "natural" weak NT. :unsure: :blink: :huh:

 

Just want some advice on how to adapt to it.

 

 

 

♥ ♥ ♥

Wrong, I do.

♥ ♥ ♥

 

 

[straube]

awm, what do you think about opening a weak NT in fourth seat?

 

Currently, we play fourth seat is 15-17 and 1D is 12-14 (in the context of a strong club system). Perhaps with 12-14 we might bury our major suit fits in order to prevent the opponents from overcalling cheaply. 1N would usually end our auction, but after 3 passes and holding 12-14, we might hope to make this most of the time. Holding a strong NT, if we opened 1D we might be alerted to a 5-cd major suit that is out against us, plus hopefully they won't have the count to bid anyway. In any case, a fourth suit 1D opening would promise something respectable.

 

I'd just as soon stick with a strong NT in fourth seat, but...

[awm]

So how do I fare if I am weaker, say take away K♣? Yes then I may have missed out on a part score battle if partner has a strong no trump, but this is hardly a crucial disadvantage. In fact I cannot think up any examples where I am really disadvantaged by playing 12-14 no trump and support doubles.

 

Put me right?

 

The more difficult situations come when you have more length in hearts. For example:

 

♠KJxxx

♥QTxx

♦Kxx

♣x

 

1♣ - Pass - 1♠ - 2♥ - Pass - Pass to you...

 

If you pass, you can easily miss a game opposite a strong notrump. If you double, you are fine if partner has a strong notrump (although you might've liked to defend, and now you never can, because partner will not have enough hearts to leave your double in)... but if partner has an unbalanced hand with clubs you could be in serious trouble.

 

The main issue is that there exist hands in this sort of auction where:

1. You have too many hearts to make a legitimate takeout double.

2. You aren't strong enough to issue a real invite.

3. Your chances in 2NT opposite an unbalanced min are poor as you may hold only 20-22 hcp combined.

4. You are too strong to pass opposite a strong notrump.

 

There are many slightly-less-bad versions of the hand I gave, with shapes like 5332, 5422, 4342, 4351 (sure, the latter two might be 1♦ responses in an up-the-line approach).

[awm]

awm, what do you think about opening a weak NT in fourth seat?

 

My friend David Kempe loves this style (weak NT in 4th seat only). I don't agree.

 

I'd make the following points against it:

 

1. Strong notrump is actually significantly more frequent in this position.

2. You will lose some partscore swings by missing your best fit, as partner will virtually never have the cards to invite as a PH.

3. If opponents actually find a call over 1NT (which depends a lot on their opening style) you often cannot compete as easily as over 1m-[bid]

4. Opponents are freed from the need to bid constructively, which is one of the things that makes defending weak NT openings difficult.

[Vampyr]

awm, what do you think about opening a weak NT in fourth seat?

 

Currently, we play fourth seat is 15-17 and 1D is 12-14 (in the context of a strong club system). Perhaps with 12-14 we might bury our major suit fits in order to prevent the opponents from overcalling cheaply. 1N would usually end our auction, but after 3 passes and holding 12-14, we might hope to make this most of the time. Holding a strong NT, if we opened 1D we might be alerted to a 5-cd major suit that is out against us, plus hopefully they won't have the count to bid anyway. In any case, a fourth suit 1D opening would promise something respectable.

 

I'd just as soon stick with a strong NT in fourth seat, but...

 

It seems that here you are arguing in favour of the preemptive value of a fourth-seat weak NT and offering no arguments for a strong NT... but saying that you prefer to play the latter. Why?

[straube]

It seems that here you are arguing in favour of the preemptive value of a fourth-seat weak NT and offering no arguments for a strong NT... but saying that you prefer to play the latter. Why?

 

Good question. I usually see more merit in the strong NT. I like to tell partner I have something decent and I like to be able to invite responder into the auction...which a weak NT doesn't do opposite a passed hand (but 1D would).

 

In fourth seat, it's annoying to open 1D and then find out that an opponent passed an 11-ct with five spades and it's actually their hand. I'd rather they had to guess at the 2-level.

 

I think awm is right, that the strong NT frequency is at least a lot higher in fourth seat...but I still see some arguments both ways. I guess my gut feeling is to stay with a strong NT.

[nigel_k]

The other advantage of strong NT in 3rd and 4th is that you can have auctions that go 1NT-3NT .

[Wackojack]

The more difficult situations come when you have more length in hearts. For example:

 

♠KJxxx

♥QTxx

♦Kxx

♣x

 

1♣ - Pass - 1♠ - 2♥ - Pass - Pass to you...

 

If you pass, you can easily miss a game opposite a strong notrump. If you double, you are fine if partner has a strong notrump (although you might've liked to defend, and now you never can, because partner will not have enough hearts to leave your double in)... but if partner has an unbalanced hand with clubs you could be in serious trouble.

 

The main issue is that there exist hands in this sort of auction where:

1. You have too many hearts to make a legitimate takeout double.

2. You aren't strong enough to issue a real invite.

3. Your chances in 2NT opposite an unbalanced min are poor as you may hold only 20-22 hcp combined.

4. You are too strong to pass opposite a strong notrump.

 

There are many slightly-less-bad versions of the hand I gave, with shapes like 5332, 5422, 4342, 4351 (sure, the latter two might be 1♦ responses in an up-the-line approach).

 

I remember Fred got into this debate in this forum some time ago and said that support doubles did not go with weak no trump. So thanks Adam for reminding me. So you have to support with 3 after intervention with a balanced 15-17 and double with 2. Is this a down side? I hear the arguments both ways.

[benlessard]

IMO 1Nt in 4th seat is not just good its awesome. It might make sense for "Strg Notrumper" to open weak Nt in 4th seat, it make no sense at all for "weak notrumper" to play a strong Nt in 4th seat. The fact that in 4th seat you are more likely to be 15-17 than 12-14 is not really relevant for me.

 

The strenght of a weak NT is the ability to block 1 level overcall while the main weakness is getting doubled. 4th seat (or being W vs red) is simply the best seat for weak NT. Go ask a couple of experienced weak Nt players about playing strong instead of weak in 4th seat and Im fairly sure that the majority will tell you that Its a poor idea.

 

I strongly disagree about not playing support X if playing a weak Nt. However some hands with 3 trumps must bid 2M rather than make a support X because they are maximum.

 

IMO maximum strong NT with 4 trump give support at 3M, minimum strong Nt with 4 trumps, unbalanced with 4 trumps & and maximum strong NT with 3 trumps bid 2M. Minimum hands with 3 trumps make a support X.

 

Maximum blanaced hands without 3 in partner suit usually can bid 2Nt. If you only have 2 card for partner and xxx in the opps suit your hand is not that good anyway and passing with 16-17 didnt pose me that much problems IRL.

[buff]

Much of this has been previously mentioned. I’ve played a weak notrump for ages, and I think on balance, it is a winning method. I prefer to use an 11-14 range (when vul, just the ‘nice’ 11’s :-) ) because that boosts the frequency by 30% or so (to about 3X that of a 15-17 range), and permits some system creativity by a passed hand responder, because he will no longer be interested in game, just the optimal partial (we open almost all 11’s whether balanced or not, so responder with < 11 will seldom be strong enough to invite). Here are some observations/suggestions:

 

Play “Dutch doubleton” 1C, where you stuff all your 15-19 balanced hands into 1C, including 3=3=5=2 (maybe even 5M(332)?). This blurs somewhat your 1C opener, but sharpens your 1D opener, which is always unbalanced and usually 5+. I like to play a forcing 1NT response to 1D, with a semi-forcing 2C opener response with good hands.

 

Play Transfer Walsh over 1C. I think TW adds more value to weak notrumpers than strong notrumpers. TW for weak notrumpers has two significant benefits. It right-sides most contracts when opener has the 15-19 balanced hands (‘standard’ bidders usually wrong-side when balanced 18-19 so that is a clear win for TW, and TW at least ‘ties’ the siding issue compared to a 15-17 1NT opener), plus you get the additional ‘raise’ of the transfer suit. I like to use the 1-level acceptance as 18-19 4-fit, and the 2-level as 15-17 4-fit, but I can understand reversing those, or using one for an unbalanced 3-fit raise, or maybe for an unbalanced 4441 raise, or maybe for a relay sequence, or whatever … the point is, you get one more raise-type than standard bidders. We use responses of 1S = no majors, 1NT = GF clubs, 2C = GF diamonds, but other methods are possible.

 

You need a good run-out system when they double 1NT. You will extremely rarely get spanked so badly it hurts. The result that hurts most at matchpoints is –200, against a partial. My theory is this: since the partner of the doubler cannot be sure how strong the doubler is (usually played with a huge range 13+ to anything), partner will often (too often) pull the double when weakish and/or unbalanced, so I want to give that guy the maximum chance to make that mistake. I use Pass to force XX (advancer mulls) intending to (1) sit and play or (2) use DONT-type runouts with two suits (advancer re-mulls). I use immediate XX (advancer mulls) to force 2C, responder holding a pass/correct weak one-suiter (advancer re-re-mulls). I use immediate transfers from 2D = diamonds to 2S = clubs, with constructive single-suiters that partner can play at the 3-level if need be, with an appropriate hand.

 

You need a good system when they compete over 1NT. Defenders seem to use Capp a lot, which imo is about the dumbest convention ever, so I welcome the use of it. Over their 2C bid (some 1-suiter) we want to disrupt them whenever possible, so with ’2-suiters’ we X with both majors 54 or better, 2D with any single suiter (forcing 2H by opener, pass/correct), 2M = 4M5m, 2N (can’t be Leb here because overcaller’s suit not known) shows xx54, 3C shows xx45. We use the same system over DONT X with 2C = 54 MM. Responder can always Pass and use Leb after overcaller reveals his suit. As a general rule, we play negative doubles and Leb against ‘natural’ overcalls. For the multi-use defences (Suction, etc), responder can wait and see. Sometimes we can bid their known suit as a takeout or stopper-ask.

 

You need a good system when advancer interferes over your 1C opener. This is the area that will give you the most headaches. It is a difficult spot for standard bidders also (and will happen more often to them because they will open 1m more often than you do, and advancer will more often be strong enough to interfere) but more likely it will cost you a missed game. Say the auction goes 1C (P) 1D(h) (1S); to you. With 4 hearts you ‘raise’ to 2H. With a spade stopper and 2-3 hearts, you can rebid 1NT (but you will probably get a spade lead which will be anti-field at matchpoints, and possibly deadly at imps if your stopper is weak … on the other hand you might improve with a holding like AJx or KJx .. on this auction KJx is very nearly as good as AKx). With just 3 hearts and no spade stopper, we raise to 2H anyway. Responder will know there is a chance he is on a 4-3 fit, and will react accordingly, and he will sometimes have 5+ hearts. With just 2 hearts and no spade stopper, we use a ‘strong notrump’ double, losing the support double, which imo is no big loss anyway. If you have an unbalanced club hand, just rebid your clubs. Now if advancer had pre-empted with (2S), then you might be screwed, but sometimes that happens to any system. I would raise to 3H with a top-of-range 3 or 4 fit, rebid 2NT with top of range, ditto with a strong notrump double, or rebid 3C with top of range and a good suit. Partner will make allowances/adjustments whatever you bid.

 

I include 5-card majors in 1NT openers, and most 5422 hands. There are pluses and minuses. A big minus is playing in 1NT with a 5-4 major fit. This can happen with strong notrumpers too but will happen less often. A big plus is your 1M openers are sharpened. You will not have a minimum 5332, you will be either 15+ balanced, or unbalanced. 1M - 1NT; 2C (could be short) will either be 15+ balanced, or unbalanced.

 

Opposite a less than invitational partner, you will often find yourself in 1NT with a 4-4 M fit. Sometimes it won’t hurt. Sometimes you will miss your 4-4 heart fit, and see they have missed their 4-4 spade fit. A lot of the time ‘you will have gotten to 1NT first’, because both sides hold a combined ~ 20 HCP. A lot of the time their leads into your 1NT contract will be not bad for you, because they are leading blind.

 

Play 1M – 2C as GF 2+, with or without a relay follow-up. Use an opener rebid of 2NT to show the 15-17 balanced hand, anything else to show the unbalanced hand.

 

As mentioned previously, if you use an 11-14 range and open most 11-pointers, then passed hand responder with a maximum of 10 cannot (very rarely anyway) want to invite game. To negotiate the optimum partial with an unbalanced hand, we like to use the defence to Capp outlined above, which allows you to show all your two-suiters. 2C = 54 majors. 2D = any 1-suiter. 2M = 4M5m, 2N = xx54, 3C = xx45.

 

If you use an 11-14 range, you might want to consider a ‘range’ Stayman of some type. We use 2C = invite+, then 2D = 11-12 no 5-card major, 2M = 11-12 5-carder, 2NT = any 13-14. After 2D, invitational responder and opener bid 4-card suits up the line to stop in 4=4 2M or 2NT. After 2NT opener rebid, 3C is GF Puppet. A direct 1NT – 3C is GF Puppet. Obviously no garbage or crawling Stayman permitted.

 

 

The weak 1NT ‘steals’ a whole level of bidding from your opps. You will open a LOT of them, watch the defenders squirm (they will say they hate it, which makes me wonder why they don’t play it). I hate playing against it. When I do, I use this simple system: 2C = 5-4 or better majors, with a 2D response = no preference. 2D and 2H are transfers. 2S = S plus m, X = H plus m. Since I am rarely hurt when they double my 1NT opening, I assume they can also scramble effectively so I don’t use a ‘penalty’ double. If I did, I would put it to a range, maybe 14-16 or whatever, so partner would better know whose hand it was, and he could judge better what to do with it, instead of floundering about.

[mgoetze]

I like to use the 1-level acceptance as 18-19 4-fit, and the 2-level as 15-17 4-fit,

I think this is pretty terrible, but as there are a lot of threads about T-Walsh on these forums and this is not one of them, I won't go into it beyond that.

[jillybean]

removed, inappropriate.

[perko90]

I've played a lot of weak NT in a 2/1 system. There's a lot of advice already, and I agree with a lot, but disagree with some.

First, I've found that weak NT is a big winner. The chance of "going for a number" is way overblown. You'll pick up 5x the tops from doubling 2 lvl contracts that no one else can for every time you take a big loss. Missing 4-4 major fits is real and does happen a fair bit, but probably just as often you keep the opponents out of their fits, too. And then the improvement of other auctions is wonderful. Inverted minor auctions are a dream. And while some have pointed out the difficulties of showing your str NT when the opp's interfere, it isn't so bad usually.

Anyway, here's my pointers:

 

1) especially at MP, don't include 5-card majors in your weak NT openers (unless they're rags - Jxxxx or worse) This creates a bit of a problem w/ 1H-1S auctions, where there can be only 1 range for the 1NT rebid with the other having to bid a 3-card minor, but it's worth this little inconvenience to be "with the field" on your 1M openers.

2) Do NOT play a run-out system where you can't play 1NTx (some of the "pass demands a redouble" systems are like that). BTW, you NEVER get to play 1NTXX - they ALWAYS run! I know; I used to play it! Instead, I recommend XX shows the strong hand right away so opener can wield the ax w/ confidence when 4th hand bids. The key runout bid by responder is Pass = doubt. Opener bids a 5-card suit if they have one or redoubles w/ TWO 4-card suits (starting a scramble) and PASSES with all 4-3-3-3 hands (you'll be happy to be playing 1NTX instead of 2 of your likely 4-3 fit doubled). Heck, 1NTX down 1 NV can even be a very nice score.

3) consider 2-way NMF instead of the vanilla NMF version. Ptr will be looking for slams more often when your 1NT rebid shows 15-17 and you need some tools. But it isn't critical and can wait to be worked in.

4) I definitely recommend playing 15-17 in 4th seat and 3rd seat Vul. A weak NT in 4th seat is surely safe enough, but it's not the best way to reach the right partial. And unlike the earlier seats, it doesn't really preempt the opps because they can bid those 2-suited overcalls more freely and can use DBL as artificial. And yes, the 15-17 NT is more frequent in 4th seat.

5) the recommendation earlier to use short club so that all balanced hands of 15-19 HCPs are opened 1C is a good one. I'd also recommend bumping up the range of 1NT response to 1C to 8-11 or so. Also, having the 1D opener an unbalanced hand w/ 4+ D's is a nice advantage - let's you rebid 1NT w/ a misfit for ptr's M. Like 1D-1S; 1NT with 1-4-4-4 shape.

6) I'm neutral about playing Xfers or not with weak NT (I've done it both ways). But if you're starting out, it's probably easiest to use 'em for the familiarity factor. But if you decide not to play them, I recommend Murray 2D instead of the more popular (but not very useful) "Forcing Stayman."

 

Have fun! They're super fun to play. And you'll get plenty of practice from almost any session.