Responding to 1S with very strong 3433 hand

[bd71]

2/1 context, with mainstream conventions.

 

A partner and I had a discussion/disagreement about this yesterday, stemming from a talk about what range of hands is feasible for a 1N forcing response to 1♠.

 

After a 1♠-1N start to an auction, we were asked at the table what the possible range for the forcing 1N response was. The response given was "unlimited", while the 1N bidder thought it was a max of 12 or so.

 

The disagreement comes down to how you would handle a hand like the following:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=skj4hajt2dkq6ca92&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1sp]133|200[/hv]

 

The hand lacks some element required for other obvious alternatives:

 

1. No 4th ♣/♦ to bid 2m.

2. No 4th ♠ to bid J2N.

3. No 5th ♥ to bid 2♥.

4. Too strong to bid 3N, which by agreement is this shape with 13-15 and offers choice of games.

 

Only other option I can imagine is a 3-card game-forcing jump-shift, which I'm guessing some may choose over 1N.

 

Questions:

 

1. What would you bid in the shown hand?

 

2. Separate from this hand, what explanation would you give to a question about the range of a forcing 1N over 1♠?

[ahydra]

I have no idea about 2/1. But in general if you play 1S-2H as promising 5 then you use 2C to catch these hands. As such the upper limit for 1NT should technically be about 12 HCP (though in practice responder might choose to force for one round "just to hear what opener has" on a few hands, e.g. if he has an epic suit of his own).

 

If playing 5cM, what's wrong with a Jacoby 2NT on a 5-3 fit?

 

ahydra

[rbforster]

There's nothing wrong with making an agreement for

 

1♠-1N(f)-2X-3N

 

that includes this hand or another balanced NT range that seems troublesome. You do tend to right-side NT as well. If you do include some GF hands in 1NT, which I used to do in an experiment at one point, we would alert it and describe as "forcing, could be game forcing" in case they wanted to inquire further.

 

Without special discussion, I think it's "standard" to bid 2♣ here despite the short suit.

[wyman]

I'd bid 2C planning to set spades on the next round, and I'd explain 1N as "positive, but less than a GF."

[mike777]

2c easy one.

 

 

2) for me I play a very wide range of 1nt up to and including 13 pt hands but we open lite.

[kenrexford]

Two Clubs seems obvious.

[Statto]

If 1NT is absolutely forcing (as I play with 1 partner), it can include stronger hands that want to hear the rebid before deciding what to do. If it is semi-forcing (i.e. 6-12) then it could theoretically be passed and is not suitable for this hand.

[Codo]

Normal and easy is 2 club. You set up a GF with spades with your next bid.

 

You can put these hands in your Jac2NT too, but not without discussion.

[Zelandakh]

If you play 2NT as a balanced GF and 3♣ as your GF raise (a la Fred) then you respond 2NT.

If you play a forcing 1NT response then you can agree to put this hand into it.

If you play relay responses then obviously you relay (1NT) this hand.

If you have several forcing raises (eg Bergen) then you can agree that a specific rebid shows this hand type after one of them.

If you play Standard, Acol, SEF; Forum D, or most other natural systems then you respond 2♣.

 

The last follows from the general rule: If you have the choice between lying about your minor suit lengths or about your major lengths you should choose to lie about the minor.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

you have various options

 

#1 Incude strong bal. hand in the forcing NT, making it 100% forcing.

#2 2NT only showes a GF raise, can be made with 3 cards

#3 use 2C, or something similar

 

With the given hand, we would bid 2NT, but we prefer to show the fit

direct, which neither #1 or #3 would do.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[kenrexford]

IMO, when you have a powerhouse 4-3-3-3 and partner opens a major, you having 3-card support for that major, one important consideration is facilitating location of the potential 4-4 fit. Sure, you are ultr-flat. But, if Opener has a 4-card holding in your 4-card suit, he has 5-4 in two suits and hence is unbalanced, where his 5-card suit offers great pitches asnd where the 4-4 fit offers better ruffing possibilities, and hence more trick potential per HCP in the combined hands.

 

The option of bidding 2♣ with 3433, 3343, or 3334 allows a 2♥ rebid, a 2♦ rtebid, or a 3♣ raise (respectively) and thus is wonderful.

 

The option of bidding 1NT allows for a 2♥ rebid, 2♦ rebid, or a 2♣ rebid, which is nice, but then establishing the GF and all that goes well with it is tricky.

 

The option of bidding 2NT or 3♣ or something like that technically might allow the 4-4 fit to be discovered, but changing tacks is very costly, as it deprives the partnership of a lot of space.

 

My main point is that a 4-3-3-3 might seem like an easy hand pattern to handle through multiple routes, but that appearance seems illusory.

 

In contrast, having 4-3-3-3 with four cards in partner's suit is a more compelling reason to make a higher-level desriptive pattern bid, in a sense, because the focus is clear and extremely unlikely to shift.

 

As a side note, this very concern is an example of a potential benefit to canape bidding.

[mgoetze]

I don't play forcing 1NT (in regular partnerships), so can't comment on that. In general I recommend the following structure:

 

2♣ (a) invitational with 3 spades, (b) balanced game-force, (c) game-force with 5+ clubs

2♦ game-force with 5+ diamonds

2♥ game-force with 5+ hearts

 

After 2♣, 2♦ asks, and then 2♠ is the invite, 2NT is the balanced GF, and other bids show 5+ clubs. You can allow other rebids than 2♦, but these need to show enough strength to accept the invite.

[andy_h]

Don't include any GF hands in the 1NT even if it's 100% Forcing. The forcing 1NT is already hard enough to deal with, don't overload it even more. If you do, then good luck with your constructive auctions to distinguish between 9 or 15 points, as well as your competitive auctions.

[Yu18772]

2/1 context, with mainstream conventions.

 

1. No 4th ♣/♦ to bid 2m.

2. No 4th ♠ to bid J2N.

3. No 5th ♥ to bid 2♥.

4. Too strong to bid 3N, which by agreement is this shape with 13-15 and offers choice of games.

 

Only other option I can imagine is a 3-card game-forcing jump-shift, which I'm guessing some may choose over 1N.

 

Questions:

 

1. What would you bid in the shown hand?

 

2. Separate from this hand, what explanation would you give to a question about the range of a forcing 1N over 1♠?

 

1. 2c - I play (and was sure it is pretty standard?) that 2c followed by 2/3/4♠ shows 3 card spade and 3+ clubs.....(diamonds are always 4+).

2. In standard 2/1 1♠-1NT shows any hand that is short of forcing game. Personally I prefer smei-forcing 1NT.....

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif Yu

[fromageGB]

Good question. I don't object to including some GF hands in the forcing 1NT, and do it myself, but you have to be careful the continuations allow you to get to game without missing a slam if opener happens to be strong. This is too strong for me to do that - opener with a 14 count will rebid weakly, and I cannot investigate slam safely. I bid 2♣ with a 2♦ relay available to find what sort of hand I have.

 

I don't understand those who would bid 2♣ and follow with 2♠, as it seems criminal to miss the possible heart fit. I rebid 2♥ to show a 16+ balanced-ish with 4 hearts. If partner does not support, I can always support spades then show extra strength.

 

With a hand in the 13-15 hcp range of this shape, I am perfectly happy to bid 1NT initially. Partner's continuations distinguish between 12-14, 15/16, 17+ sort of hands, and if we have a heart fit, he will bid them. If he is balanced, 3NT remains a possible contract, and it will be played the right way round if I bid 1NT initially.

 

I agree with the comment that J2N is better reserved for a 4 card support hand. It would be too variable otherwise.

[aguahombre]

2C is the default start for all the J2N people, of course.

But those of us who have 2NT available as natural (whether we use Fred's J3C or not), can use the old fashioned variant on 2N followed by 4N: 2NT followed by 4S!(Plan revised if partner rebids 3M/2NT). This hand falls just below insistence upon slam and into the quantitative set, IMO.

 

We have game forcing patterns that can be shown after 1S-1N(F). But this isn't one of them.

[mgoetze]

I don't understand those who would bid 2♣ and follow with 2♠, as it seems criminal to miss the possible heart fit. I rebid 2♥ to show a 16+ balanced-ish with 4 hearts. If partner does not support, I can always support spades then show extra strength.

You can only rebid 2♥ if opener rebids 2♦. Now ask yourself, how often does opener have 4 hearts when it goes 1♠-2♣; 2♦?

[Tomi2]

I do play forcing NT including GF balanced hands as well, but we took out any fit of 1NT, no weak - no limit - no GF hands with fit possible.

This works well after having discussed some sequences to show the strong balanced, esp. combined with gazilli, where one can find out lots about openers hand.

this hand would work well in my structure

1NT = no fit, natural range or stronger unlimited

2clubs = 3+ card fit, invitational or stronger

2red = 5 card suit, GF

2spades, 3dia and 3 spades = several raises of spades

2NT = GF with own clubs (so compared to standard methods the clubshowing 2 clubs and the fitshowing 2nt are reversed)

 

the given hand is an easy 2club bid, partner limits his hand on the next turn and i can set up a gameforce with 2nt suggesting a balanced hand. Further bidding will be natural to locate a possible side-fit, and the values for slam

[CSGibson]

My partner and I incorporate 4-3-3-3 16-17 counts and 4-3-3-3 18-19 counts into the forcing NT by rebidding 4C and 4D, respectively, over any 2 level response. This method has proven effective to stay out of bad slams and to get to good ones in general, though I can easily imagine instances where the space consumption would prove to be a detriment.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1♠ open

 

1) rbforster's ( post # 3 ) seems to handle the 3 4 3 3 problem with a 15-17 count:

1S - 1NTF

2any - 3NT!

 

2) That only leaves the 18,19 count ( w/ 3 4 3 3 ):

  a) I think I like a variation of CSGibson's idea ( post # 19 ) to handle that:

1S - 1NTF

2any - 4C!

 

  b ) Alternately, I might consider some form of immediate Jac2NT! raise for this one....

( it does leave more space ) .

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

1♥ open

There isn't a problem w/ 4 3 3 3 or 3 3 ( 4 3 )

 

You either have an immediate GF with a 2/1 in a 4 card minor ( 1S - 2m! )...

or

You go thru 4th-suit GF with 4 cards Spades starting with 1H - 1S ...

[TWO4BRIDGE]

More thoughts on post # 20 :

 

For the 1♠ open , since (1) and (2a) always show the 3 4 3 3 shape, lets take the 2H rebid by Opener:

 

1S - 1NT!

2H - 3NT! or 4C!, both showing the 3 4 3 3 shape and 15-17 or 18,19 respectively

 

If either auction eventually goes 4NT = RKC key card, it should be 6-Ace ( ♥ & ♠ ).

 

EDIT: ie because of the double-fit .

Edited May 31, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[aguahombre]

More thoughts on post # 20 :

 

For the 1♠ open , since (1) and (2a) always show the 3 4 3 3 shape, lets take the 2H rebid by Opener:

 

1S - 1NT!

2H - 3NT! or 4C!, both showing the 3 4 3 3 shape and 15-17 or 18,19 respectively

 

If either auction eventually goes 4NT = RKC key card, it should be 6-Ace ( ♥ & ♠ ).

Yes, a good side point. We agree that there are 6 keys whenever: one partner has shown another suit which isn't trump, and the other partner is guaranteed by the auction to have two of that other suit. If there is any possible way of holding less than two of the "side" suit, no 6-card RKC.

[helene_t]

If you start with 1NT, what do you do if opener rebids 2♠ ? I suppose you can just ask for keycards.

 

If he rebids 2♣ is is more tricky. Lacking a forcing call you will have to ask for keycards but ♣K is not necesarilly a cricial card.

 

And even if he rebids 2♦ you still have the problem that you can't ask for ♠Q.

[fromageGB]

In general I recommend the following structure:

2♣ (a) invitational with 3 spades, (b) balanced game-force, (c) game-force with 5+ clubs

After 2♣, 2♦ asks...

 

You can only rebid 2♥ if opener rebids 2♦. Now ask yourself, how often does opener have 4 hearts when it goes 1♠-2♣; 2♦?

As you yourself said earlier, after 2♣ opener DOES usually bid 2♦ to ask. This is essential if you have different options in your 2♣ bid, so it is not solely a GF with long clubs. He will do this whenever he does not have a 55 distributional hand. This means that with any normal hand opener rebids 2♦, and you explore the best contract. Whether opener has 4 hearts or not does not matter. What does matter is that when he does, you find the heart fit.

[fromageGB]

If you start with 1NT, what do you do if opener rebids 2♠ ? I suppose you can just ask for keycards.

 

If he rebids 2♣ is is more tricky. Lacking a forcing call you will have to ask for keycards but ♣K is not necesarilly a cricial card.

 

And even if he rebids 2♦ you still have the problem that you can't ask for ♠Q.

As, I said, not my methods and with this hand I would not start 1NT, but your comments only apply if you have not agreed a follow-up forcing call, and even if you haven't they don't apply if you use a Kickback variant.