Lunatic Fringe

[daveharty]

[hv=pc=n&w=s95h984dj4ct96532&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cdp1hp2cp]133|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoints, none vul. Your move.

[gordontd]

2♥

[gnasher]

I'd have avoided the problem by passing out 1♣x, not because I expect to beat it particularly, but because 1♥ is almost certain to lead to a 3-3 fit, a 4-3 fit at a high level, or a number of notrumps going down.

[Cyberyeti]

I'd have avoided the problem by passing out 1♣x, not because I expect to beat it particularly, but because 1♥ is almost certain to lead to a 3-3 fit, a 4-3 fit at a high level, or a number of notrumps going down.

My partner usually has 8 or 9 spades and a monster when I pass this out :)

[billw55]

My partner usually has 8 or 9 spades and a monster when I pass this out :)

Something similar was discussed in the thread with the ♥AKQJTxxxx suit. As I recall someone commented to the effect that if you double, you deserve to be left there.

[32519]

I'd have avoided the problem by passing out 1♣x, not because I expect to beat it particularly, but because 1♥ is almost certain to lead to a 3-3 fit, a 4-3 fit at a high level, or a number of notrumps going down.

 

I don’t agree with this. Instead I will go along with the thread title, “Lunatic Fringe.” Partner’s 2♣ cue shows a good hand interested in game. With such an awful hand and 6X♣ you need to pull a rabbit out of the hat to turn a potential negative result (as your post rightly indicates), into a positive result. How do you intend doing that?

 

My next bid after 2♣ = Pass!

 

You are unlikely to be doubled. If you are, partner can return to 2♥. Additionally, you have two short suits with plenty of ruffing value. Partner has shown a good hand which should see both short suits disappear quickly. Believe it or not, but I think 2♣ may be your best spot. As I said, this post belongs to the Lunatic Fringe.

 

Dave, kindly post the full hand and the result so that we can all see what actually happened at the table.

 

Thank you.

[Phil]

2♥. I would have passed 1♣ x'd as well.

[aguahombre]

If I had to sit in for the player who got ill after bidding 1H, instead of passing....then passing 2C must be right. The cue after the original double should not be a one-suiter GOSH (would bid or jump-bid that suit now), does not have heart support (would raise hearts), does not have a huge NT hand with a club stop (would bid NT).

 

Pard has a huge hand without direction and without a club stop maybe 4-3-4-2 or somesuch.

[ArtK78]

I am dumbfounded.

 

Ever since the all-mighty game forcing direct cue bid left the scene around the time I started learing the game it was replaced with a cuebid following a takeout double. Admittedly, this did not solve certain problems - for example, one might have game-in-hand but would fear partner passing the takeout double, so one would have to do something other than double. But it remains part of basic bidding that a double followed by a cue bid shows game-in-hand, absent an agreement to the contrary.

 

Recently, I had my robot partner pass such a cue bid. Why the robot did not pass out 1♦x holding QT9xxx of diamonds and out is another question. But after bidding 2♣ on its 2-2-6-3 hand and hearing me bid 2♦, the robot passed.

 

I can certainly see why one might pass 1♣x. But I consider it to be a breach of partnership discipline to pass 2♣.

[rmnka447]

2 ♥ -- I don't like doing it, but do so for maintaining partnership confidence. Partner has shown the equivalent of a Standard strong and artificial 2 ♣ opener. So,

I'll give partner one more chance to tell his story.

[Phil]

I might have mentioned it here, but it bears repeating. I have a lot of Brian stories - this is one.

 

In an LA Regional many moons ago, I dealt and pick up a big hand (21-ish) with 3-1-5-4.

 

So I open 1♦ and hear, 1♥ on my left, p, p and I x. Pass and partner bids 1♠. I cue 2♥.....and partner PASSES. He held 3 spades and QT9xxx of hearts and was afraid that we wouldn't do so well against 1♥ x'd if I held a 12 count with a stiff heart so he pulled. Fine.

 

For the record, 2♥ played like a dream - I think I might have scrambled 10 tricks.

 

Fast forward to the San Diego NABC. I have a 4=4=4=1 20 count and I open 1♦. 1♠ by him and I splinter to 4♣. He tanks and bids 4♠. I leave the table and come back and he's down 1. He shows me his hand and its something like Qxx, x, x, KQTxxxxx! We lose a NV game swing on this board. Steve Sturm at the other table bids 2♣ and they get to 5♣ which just makes. Lose 10.

 

Even though this was the 4th match, their team edges us out by one VP for the last qualifying spot. If he PASSES 4♣, we lose only 6 on the board , get an extra victory point and play Sunday.

 

More importantly, he gets to brag about how passing a splinter allows his team to move on :)

[aguahombre]

I can certainly see why one might pass 1♣x. But I consider it to be a breach of partnership discipline to pass 2♣.

As stated in the post above yours, passing 2♣ is a show of trust, not a breach of discipline. I trust partner not to have heart support, a single suited monster, or a big NT with a club stop. With those, she would have raised hearts, bid the single suit, or bid some number of NT after having doubled the first time. With a huge spade/diamond two suiter partner might have doubled, but she would not make a 2C cue now.

[ggwhiz]

I trust partner not to have heart support

 

My partnership agreement is that 2♣ DOES show ♥ support with a hand too good to bid 3 or 4 of them. There are exceptions but along the lines of running spades with slam interest opposite nothing much.

 

Along the lines of a Brian story, I once picked up

 

♠Ax ♥Axxxxxx, ♦AKQx ♣-

 

rho opened 1nt 10-12, I bid 2♦ (xfer to ♥) and it went pass - pass

 

rho balanced with 3♣ :) and pard had 7♦ to the jack with a ♥ void. I blew it by only bidding 6♦ but 4♥ went down 1 at the other table.

[ArtK78]

As stated in the post above yours, passing 2♣ is a show of trust, not a breach of discipline. I trust partner not to have heart support, a single suited monster, or a big NT with a club stop. With those, she would have raised hearts, bid the single suit, or bid some number of NT after having doubled the first time. With a huge spade/diamond two suiter partner might have doubled, but she would not make a 2C cue now.

Suffice it to say that I disagree with you.

[JLOGIC]

I'd have avoided the problem by passing out 1♣x, not because I expect to beat it particularly, but because 1♥ is almost certain to lead to a 3-3 fit, a 4-3 fit at a high level, or a number of notrumps going down.

 

Not like you avoid problems entirely, they will run and partner will double and I wouldn't exactly feel great about the whole thing.

 

Sometimes your partner doubles and bids a suit also which you can just pass. It's not like the world is necessarily coming to an end right now. Sometimes he will double and cuebid and let you play 2H in the 4-3, your bidding is pretty weak. Sometimes he will have 5 hearts. I think it is too presumptuous to decide we are *****ed at this early stage, LHO might well bid over 1H also. I would not be surprised to hear something like 1N on our left over 1H in which case we might be ok, we do have zero points and RHO passed.

[Statto]

Pass looks obvious now. I know it's supposed to be forcing... but really, with this hand?

[gnasher]

Not like you avoid problems entirely, they will run and partner will double and I wouldn't exactly feel great about the whole thing.

 

Sometimes your partner doubles and bids a suit also which you can just pass. It's not like the world is necessarily coming to an end right now. Sometimes he will double and cuebid and let you play 2H in the 4-3, your bidding is pretty weak. Sometimes he will have 5 hearts.

 

If partner would have bid a new suit after 1♥, presumably he'll also bid his suit after opener redoubles 1♣. If partner has five hearts, he'll probably take the opportunity to bid 1♥. The hands where he ends up doubling something are the ones without a five-card suit, or at least without a five-card major.

 

If we planned to pass partner's double, we would be playing for seven tricks in a 4-2 fit at the one level, with our side on lead. I think that's better than having to play for nine tricks in a 4-3 fit or eight tricks in a 3-3. If we knew we could stop in 2♥ and have enough trumps to be there, I'd be happier about bidding imediately.

 

Alternatively, what about passing 1♣x, but running to hearts if partner ends up doubling of 1♠ or 1♦? That would make it pretty clear that we're not interested in playing a large number of hearts, so it should improve our chances of stopping at a sensible level.

 

I think it is too presumptuous to decide we are *****ed at this early stage, LHO might well bid over 1H also. I would not be surprised to hear something like 1N on our left over 1H in which case we might be ok, we do have zero points and RHO passed.

Yes, he might, but he's not the only one with a good hand - partner will have an 18-count too. We're not very well placed after

1

♣

dbl pass 1

♥

1NT dbl pass

[32519]

The cue after the original double should not be a one-suiter GOSH (would bid or jump-bid that suit now), does not have heart support (would raise hearts), does not have a huge NT hand with a club stop (would bid NT).

 

I saw this acronym GOSH in a different thread and wasn't sure what it meant there. I thought it may stand for "Good Old Stayman Hand." :P Your post rather indicates "Good One Suited Hand." I hope I got it right this time.

[Statto]

I saw this acronym GOSH ...

Not to be confused with GSOH B-)

[jdeegan]

:P Nightmare scenario, YUK. I am not going to pass assuming a regular partner. 2♣ is only a ♥ raise if pard thinks slam is possible opposite five ♥ and the right six or seven HCP or maybe less. Maybe 2♦ is the best way to slow this auction down.

[daveharty]

[hv=pc=n&s=st64ht532dq7652c4&w=s95h984dj4ct96532&n=s8732hkj76dtcakqj&e=sakqjhaqdak983c87&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cdp1hp2cppp]399|300[/hv]

 

First prize to those who passed 1CX, since declarer will be held to his four trump tricks. I was East and just about fell out of my chair when my partner passed 2C, but it did save us some matchpoints since it seems to be just about the only making contract for EW, although 2NT makes I suppose. At the table my thinking was similar to ArtK78's; I could understand passing 1CX (hoping for the least bad result) but passing the cuebid seemed a breach of discipline. Now I'm not so sure.

[jillybean]

I am not sure that I like the double. What do you do when partner bids 1♥ or worse, jumps in ♥'s?

[kayin801]

I don't understand this stuff about breaching partnership trust and discipline and whatnot. Maybe this has something to do with playing with people you don't play with that often and wanting to continue playing with them, but if Josh (sohcahtoa, reg partner of 5 years) passed 2C thinking it was the percentage move then I would be perfectly okay with that, even if he was wrong this time. Obviously it could work out poorly, partner is unlimited and has said not all that much about his hand, but crazy moves work out sometimes too. Best case it's a cool story, even if it's an anti-percentage play. Worst case, lose 10, next board. If he decided to bid 2♥ and pass was correct I wouldn't get pissed either. I admit if partner was consistently passing forcing cuebids it would be aggravating, but this seems to be the exception, not the rule?

 

(Too much bromance? Sorry :P)

 

Jilly: anything but X seriously understates the value of your hand and risks missing a good game. Yes, you expect partner to bid hearts but 2♦ is a huge underbid. I don't mind 2♣ here after the X, hoping partner can bid something else, or 2NT which is a lie but the club opening might not have that much to it (plus the 2NT call might dissuade a club lead)

[jillybean]

kayin801; I would be quite happy bidding diamonds then spades with this hand, it is a perfect description of my hand.

[daveharty]

I would be quite happy bidding diamonds then spades with this hand, it is a perfect description of my hand.

If this is the approach you take with this hand, you must realize that a huge percentage of the time you won't get a second bite at the apple. You will get passed out in 1D when partner has xxxxx xxxx xx xx, or xx JTxxx Qx xxxx, or xxx KJxxx xxx xx, or any of a thousand other hands where game is excellent or cold but where partner wouldn't dream of acting over a simple overcall. This isn't one of those wild distributional hands where you can count on the opponents to keep the auction open even if your partner doesn't; this is a semi-balanced prime 23 count. I favor heavier simple overcalls than most, but this is way too strong. Or maybe you are suggesting strong jump overcalls; I have no experience with them, that wasn't an option. As for "what do you do when partner bids 1H", you see what my plan was; in the (extremely remote) event that partner jumped in hearts, how bad can that be? Partner's hearts can't be all that good, so he would presumably have something outside for the jump; if it's a club stopper we will probably play 3NT, if it's something in diamonds we'll play in diamonds, and if he has extra heart length we'll play 4H.