1C1D as semipositives

[straube]

Partner and I very much like the idea of separating the semipositives from the double negatives in preparation for a competitive auction, but 1C-1H as all semipositives preempts us when we're in part score mode. Here's an outline that makes us +1 on more than half of our GF auctions and wrong-sides more than I would like...but it does improve the semipositive auctions. In the following, opener can reverse relay everything but both majors.

 

 

1C-1D all semipositives

.....1H-H or relay

..........1S-any with 4+ S (including H fit)

...............1N-relay

....................2C-bal

....................2D-S/H or S/H, m

....................2H-S/C

....................2S-S

....................etc-S/D

...............other-natural, nf

..........1N-bal, not 4M, forcing

...............2C-relay

..........2C-6C or C/D

...............2H-C/D

...............etc-C

..........2D-6D

...............2H-natural

...............2S-relay

..........2H-H/C

..........2S-5S, bal

..........etc-H/D

.....1S-natural

.....1N-17-18

.....2m-natural

 

1C-1H=S or bal

.....1S-relays

..........1N-bal

...............2C-relays

...............2D-S/C

...............2H-S

...............etc-S/D

..........2C-S/H, S/H/m

..........2D-S/C

..........2H-S

..........etc-S/D

.....1N-H, H/C, H/D

.....2C-C/D

.....2D-C

.....2H-C/D/m

.....etc-D

 

1C-1S=all double negatives

 

1C-1N=H, H/C, H/D

 

1C-2C=C/D

 

1C-2D-C

 

1C-2H-C/D/M

 

etc-D

[akhare]

Interesting scheme, but if you include Rob F.'s TOSR tweak, i.e., you can achieve parity with symmetric and still eat your cake:

 

1D: All SPs *and* GF with H/H+m

......1H: Ask; Hs or minors or other GF

..........1S: <Blah>

..........1N: <Blah>

..........2C: GF with H+C? -> Can be moved above if needed

..........2D: GF with Hs? -> Can be moved above if needed

..........2H+: GF with H+Ds? -> Can be moved if needed

......1S: Natural, F1 round

..........1N: GF relay?

......1N: Min bal

......2m: Natural

..........2H: GF relay

 

1H: Bal or S/S+m

......1N: S/S+C

......2C: Bal with major

......2D: Bal without major

......2H+: S+D

1S: DN

1N: H+S / 3 suited

....2D: 3 suited

....2H: H+S

2C: Minors

2D: Clubs

2H: Three suited

2S+: Diamonds

[straube]

Interesting scheme, but if you include Rob F.'s TOSR tweak, i.e., you can achieve parity with symmetric and still eat your cake:

 

1D: All SPs *and* GF with H/H+m

......1H: Ask; Hs or minors or other GF

..........1S: <Blah>

..........1N: <Blah>

..........2C: GF with H+C? -> Can be moved above if needed

..........2D: GF with Hs? -> Can be moved above if needed

..........2H+: GF with H+Ds? -> Can be moved if needed

......1S: Natural, F1 round

..........1N: GF relay?

......1N: Min bal

......2m: Natural

..........2H: GF relay

 

1H: Bal or S/S+m

......1N: S/S+C

......2C: Bal with major

......2D: Bal without major

......2H+: S+D

1S: DN

1N: H+S / 3 suited

....2D: 3 suited

....2H: H+S

2C: Minors

2D: Clubs

2H: Three suited

2S+: Diamonds

 

 

What's his full deal? I thought his 1D response was 0-7 or GF H

[akhare]

What's his full deal? I thought his 1D response was 0-7 or GF H

 

Yes -- his scheme was as below, but you can borrow the basic premise:

 

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~forster/bridge/development/RF%20TOSR%20with%201C-1D%20hearts%20v2.doc

 

1D H/H+m/4441 GF, or almost all negatives (excluding 1-suited 6+ semipositives)

........1S any negative, or GF 4441

........1N H+C

2C H only

2D+ H+D

[straube]

Yes -- his scheme was as below, but you can borrow the basic premise:

 

http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~forster/bridge/development/RF%20TOSR%20with%201C-1D%20hearts%20v2.doc

 

1D H/H+m/4441 GF, or almost all negatives (excluding 1-suited 6+ semipositives)

........1S any negative, or GF 4441

........1N H+C

2C H only

2D+ H+D

 

There's a huge difference between 1D as all semipositives and 1D as 0-7 or heart positives. I see you're suggesting we add H positives to 1D as all semipositives. This would work sometimes, but would clash after 1C-1D, natural rebid. I'm obviously very down on 2-way bids.

 

The idea of 1D as all semipositives is a step closer to Moscito. I'm sure Marston looked at it. I wonder what he came up with.

[akhare]

There's a huge difference between 1D as all semipositives and 1D as 0-7 or heart positives. I see you're suggesting we add H positives to 1D as all semipositives. This would work sometimes, but would clash after 1C-1D, natural rebid. I'm obviously very down on 2-way bids.

 

Well, considering that both IMPrecision and Rob. F came up with a similar idea for 1D, there has to be some merit to it.

 

As I see it, there's a lot of room after 1C - 1D to sort out some GF hands from SP. Furthermore, given that the DN hands aren't a possibility, the continuations can't be that bad...

[awm]

Rob F and I do know each other (in person even) and some ideas were bounced back and forth so we did not come up with stuff 100% independently. I wouldn't read too much into it.

[straube]

I think they use their 1D response very differently.

 

If 1D is a 2-way response, then one needs to devote machinery to separating one from the other.

 

In awm's case, opener usually makes a natural rebid and some of the time, responder is able to pass with the DN...which economizes bidding room.

 

I don't quite follow Rob's structure because it seems like...

 

1C-1D, 1H doesn't promise extras (necessarily)

 

but

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S is 0-7

 

while

 

`C-1D, 1H-1N etc shows the GF heart hands....right?

 

But I think the auction must be very difficult after 1C-1D, 1H-1S. That's a 2-way bid followed by a 2-way bid followed by a 0-7 range.

 

awm, what do you think of this 1C-1D as all semipositives?

[awm]

I believe I'm already on record as not liking this approach. It seems like a big loser on the double negative and a mild loser on the positives. You get a step when you relay opposite a semi but those hands are rare and the tight range makes them easier.

 

It only makes sense if you get some huge gain when 4th hand intervenes but as I've said before I don't see it. I'd much rather have some shape info.

[straube]

Ok. Thanks. I worry about losing a step for the positives.

[rbforster]

I don't quite follow Rob's structure because it seems like...

 

1C-1D, 1H doesn't promise extras (necessarily)

 

but

 

1C-1D, 1H-1S is 0-7

 

while

 

`C-1D, 1H-1N etc shows the GF heart hands....right?

 

But I think the auction must be very difficult after 1C-1D, 1H-1S. That's a 2-way bid followed by a 2-way bid followed by a 0-7 range.

1C-1D-1H denies extras in my methods (with a few rare exceptions for jumps to 2N+ after a negative 1S response). After 1C-1D, with a minimum hand you bid 1H or 1S while with extras you bid 1N+ (naturally).

 

After 1C-1D-1H-1S, the bidding is natural for min NT, 5+ minor, or 6+ major. Responder with 0-4 will typically pass, or with 5-7 can invite, employ strong NT methods, etc. For me, 16-18 opposite 5-7 is already looking for some pretty thin games, so a lot of these auctions are just about finding the right partial.

[rbforster]

I believe I'm already on record as not liking this approach. It seems like a big loser on the double negative and a mild loser on the positives. You get a step when you relay opposite a semi but those hands are rare and the tight range makes them easier.

 

It only makes sense if you get some huge gain when 4th hand intervenes but as I've said before I don't see it. I'd much rather have some shape info.

 

 

Ok. Thanks. I worry about losing a step for the positives.

I agree with Adam on this. SP hands have all the same shapes as GFs, but with much tighter strength range. Thus it makes sense if you plan on relaying both shape and strength, to assign less space to SPs than GFs. For games this doesn't matter, but for slam purposes, you want to put your space to best use without risking going above game or your safety level while exploring.

 

I don't mind the TOSR approach of GF positives with relays, and a 0-7 1D that can get on a relay+2 track if opener shows extras with 1H and responder doesn't bid 1S showing a bust. That gets the SP hands showing shape with 1N+ instead of 1H+. Having them both on parity, i.e. GF and SP hands resolve at TOSR+1 instead of +0 and +2 seems to be a step in the wrong direction as it were, for the reasons above.

 

Myself, I downgrade the SP hands even more and don't even try to relay them. In exchange, I get my GF hands at TOSR-1 for the most part, which means a lot easier slam exploration. I'm not 100% sure this is the best tradeoff, but it doesn't seem like a bad one.

[straube]

1C-1D-1H denies extras in my methods (with a few rare exceptions for jumps to 2N+ after a negative 1S response). After 1C-1D, with a minimum hand you bid 1H or 1S while with extras you bid 1N+ (naturally).

 

After 1C-1D-1H-1S, the bidding is natural for min NT, 5+ minor, or 6+ major. Responder with 0-4 will typically pass, or with 5-7 can invite, employ strong NT methods, etc. For me, 16-18 opposite 5-7 is already looking for some pretty thin games, so a lot of these auctions are just about finding the right partial.

 

ok, so I see how having 1C-1D, 1H-1S as 0-7 is not a problem...because basically opener doesn't have extra anway.

 

But what do you do when opener has extra and wants to force after 1C-1D? I suppose your 1N rebid there is bigger and your 1S rebid is natural and forcing? What though for the rest? I mean, it seems like you must postpone the difficulty of subdividing the 0-7 as well as the GF heart hands.

 

So 1C-1D, 2C is...?

[straube]

I agree with Adam on this. SP hands have all the same shapes as GFs, but with much tighter strength range. Thus it makes sense if you plan on relaying both shape and strength, to assign less space to SPs than GFs. For games this doesn't matter, but for slam purposes, you want to put your space to best use without risking going above game or your safety level while exploring.

 

I don't mind the TOSR approach of GF positives with relays, and a 0-7 1D that can get on a relay+2 track if opener shows extras with 1H and responder doesn't bid 1S showing a bust. That gets the SP hands showing shape with 1N+ instead of 1H+. Having them both on parity, i.e. GF and SP hands resolve at TOSR+1 instead of +0 and +2 seems to be a step in the wrong direction as it were, for the reasons above.

 

Myself, I downgrade the SP hands even more and don't even try to relay them. In exchange, I get my GF hands at TOSR-1 for the most part, which means a lot easier slam exploration. I'm not 100% sure this is the best tradeoff, but it doesn't seem like a bad one.

 

Yeah, I'm not so much trying to save steps for the SPs (most but the balanced hands are still +2) so much as find low level fits. It's occasionally annoying that our opener can't even rebid 2C natural after 1C-1H showing 5-7.

Obviously we have trouble with 1435 and 1354 and such. With 1C-1D as 5-7 no problem.

 

I really do like separating the 0-4 from 5-7 right away. I know that not everyone cares as much, but I like to know whether partner is totally broke or not.

 

We defended against a strong club auction the other day...

 

1C P 1D (1N minors)

dbl P 2H P

2S P 3H P

4C P 4H P

4S P 5C alerted as RKC for hearts

all pass

 

I think at least part of the problem they had was not knowing 0-4 or 5-7. Opener had to double to show extras and then who knows what was forcing and what wasn't after that. I feel like we wouldn't have had this problem.

 

Overall, pretty happy with 1H as all semipositives though we do trade part score accuracy for game/slam accuracy.

[rbforster]

ok, so I see how having 1C-1D, 1H-1S as 0-7 is not a problem...because basically opener doesn't have extra anway.

 

But what do you do when opener has extra and wants to force after 1C-1D?

The very simple version is:

 

1C(16+) -1D(0-7 or ♥/♥+m/4441 GF):

 

1♥ min values, bal or 1-suited

1♠ min values, 2 suited

1N 19-21 balanced or 4441

2♣ near GF or better, "strong 2C opener"

2♦♥♠ 5+ extras, unbalanced

3♣ 5+ extras unbalanced

 

As you can probably guess, I am not happy with a simple version when a more complicated version with 3rd round relays could be better. Adding various tweaks you can keep the club hands from forcing to the 3 level with only a 5 card suit, emphasize majors a little more in showing minimum 2-suiters, and stuff in various strong hands like extra strength 6m/4M or 5/5 hands into various jump rebids by opener.

 

it seems like you must postpone the difficulty of subdividing the 0-7 as well as the GF heart hands.

That's true to some extent, although opener is pretty limited in terms of range (20-22ish for not rebidding 2♣) so responder is in the drivers' seat with the rare GFs. Since the 0-4 hands will typically pass (or transfer and pass over NT), hands with SP or better values are GF anyway opposite 20+. This sometimes means you can't convey your extras as well, but it hasn't been a big problem.

 

One drawback to these methods is that you don't get to use the full shape relays when opener has extras and responder has a GF. I judged that tradeoff to be acceptable since

 

1. it's not that common that responder has a GF positive when opener has 20+ points.

2. you have enough strength that natural methods can probably find the right strain and investigate slam without getting too high

[benlessard]

IMO

 

1D as H or SP

1H = S weak or GF

1S = No M w or GF

1NT = clubs w or GF

2C = D W or GF

2D = 6H W or GF

2H = 6S w or GF

 

Is by far the best setup I have played and im pretty convinced its one of the best setup. Not playing transfer over a strong clubs is IMO worse than not playing transfer over a strong Nt.

[straube]

Rob, thanks for explaining your system and letting me poke at it a little. I see that your awkward auctions are at least rare. All of these club systems have their tradeoffs.

[straube]

Widening the semipositives to 2-5 QPs. Basically, this structure devotes more room comparatively to the SPs, so I'm placing a little more stress on them. It's important that responder holding a semipositive be able to force game (whether holding 5 QPs or less) so responder's bids are forcing until opener attempts a sign off...such as not relaying.

 

1C-1D all semipositives (2-5 QPs)

.....1H-H or relay

..........1S-any with 4+ S (including H fit)

...............1N-relay

....................2C-bal

.........................2D-relays

..............................2H-min

...................................2S-relays

........................................2N-5S

........................................3C-4234

........................................3D-4324

........................................3H-4243

........................................3S-4342

........................................3N-4333

..............................2S-4H/4S any

..............................2N-5S, max

..............................3C-4234, max

..............................3D-4324, max

..............................3H-4243, max

..............................3S-4342, max

..............................3N-4333, max

....................2D-S/H or S/H, m

....................2H-S/C

....................2S-S

....................etc-S/D

...............other-natural, nf

..........1N-C or C/D

...............2C-to play

...............2D-relay

....................2H-C

....................2S-4D/5C

....................2N-5D/5C

....................etc

..........2C-6 diamonds

...............2S-relay

..........2D-bal, no major

...............2H-natural

...............2S-relay

....................2N-5C or 3334

....................3C-4D/4C

....................3D-3352

....................3H-3253

....................3S-2353

....................3N-3343

..........2H-H/C

..........2S-5S, bal

..........etc-H/D

.....1S-natural

.....1N-17-18

.....2m-natural

 

1C-1H=S or bal

.....1S-relays

..........1N-bal

...............2C-relays

...............2D-S/C

...............2H-S

...............etc-S/D

..........2C-S/H, S/H/m

..........2D-S/C

..........2H-S

..........etc-S/D

.....1N-H, H/C, H/D

.....2C-C/D

.....2D-C

.....2H-C/D/m

.....etc-D

 

1C-1S=all double negatives

 

1C-1N=H, H/C, H/D

 

1C-2C=C/D

 

1C-2D-C

 

1C-2H-C/D/M

 

etc-D

[straube]

tally for 100 hands

 

1D-56 (2-5 QPs)

1H-19

1S-18

other-7

 

thinking of shifting the 5 QP hands back into GF

[rbforster]

IMO

 

1D as H or SP

1H = S weak or GF

1S = No M w or GF

1NT = clubs w or GF

2C = D W or GF

2D = 6H W or GF

2H = 6S w or GF

 

Is by far the best setup I have played and im pretty convinced its one of the best setup. Not playing transfer over a strong clubs is IMO worse than not playing transfer over a strong Nt.

This seems like it would be pretty interesting - different than many structures I've seen and it seems to have a lot of potential for very efficient continuations.

[dake50]

How about taking the GF H1 (one suiters) and

H+D, H+C out of 1C-Force?

Say into 1D, with a strong rebid.

[hrothgar]

IMO

 

1D as H or SP

1H = S weak or GF

1S = No M w or GF

1NT = clubs w or GF

2C = D W or GF

2D = 6H W or GF

2H = 6S w or GF

 

Is by far the best setup I have played and im pretty convinced its one of the best setup. Not playing transfer over a strong clubs is IMO worse than not playing transfer over a strong Nt.

 

This looks HORRIBLE

 

I am presuming that the strong club opener is forced to bid "step" with hands that have no interest in exploring game opposite the weak hand type.

In turn, you need to use step +1 as a relay.

 

There is no room at the two level to explore alternative strains

[rbforster]

This looks HORRIBLE

 

I am presuming that the strong club opener is forced to bid "step" with hands that have no interest in exploring game opposite the weak hand type.

In turn, you need to use step +1 as a relay.

 

There is no room at the two level to explore alternative strains

It doesn't seem much worse than others with an art semipositive response though. Most relay systems can't relay opposite a very weak hand (double negative) and you wouldn't be any worse off for GF hands than playing pure GF transfer except when a very strong hand uses Step +1 to relay opposite the GF (and then losing a step isn't so bad since you'll have lots of space). It seems better in competition too, since the DN hands get shape info in early and can be easily separated from the GF ones later.

 

And while there is little room to explore strain opposite the DN hand in some cases (there still would be for the lower transfers, open could often bid a natural 2M for example), most precision systems can't do this well either. You have normal precision auctions like 1c 1d 1h (strong) 1s (DN) blah, where opener guesses a suit at the two level instead of responder but that's not clearly any worse. Or 1c 1s (DN) blah.

[PrecisionL]

I play 3 different Strong Club Systems.

Our version of Millennium Club (15+ hcp) has non-forcing Major Suit responses @ 1-level:

 

1♣ - 1♦ = 0-8 hcp and 4+♥

1♣ - 1♥ = 0-8 hcp and 4+♠

1♣ - 1♠ = 0-8 hcp and no 4-cd major

1♣ - 1 NT = 6+ hcp and the Majors: 5-4 or better, or 4441 / 4414

1♣ - 2♣ = 8+ hcp, Artificial & Game Forcing with fit

 

Also, American Forcing Minors had some semi-positive responses to their 1♣ hand.

[benlessard]

I am presuming that the strong club opener is forced to bid "step" with hands that have no interest in exploring game opposite the weak hand type.

In turn, you need to use step +1 as a relay.

 

No & no

IMO relaying 0-5 hands is mostly a waste of time (We can with 2NT art GF but these never happened in thousands of hands). The goal of showing out weak hand with 6 card suit directly is that these hands are preemptive & can make game based with subminimum values quite easily. These hand also often lead to the only makable contract. Can you stop in 2m if opener has 5S+4H and you have 6m & 2pts ? How about a balanced hand vs 6m ? (some can stop at 2D but not many at 2C)

 

For the responses opener can bid a new suit not forcing if he has a good solid suit of it own and a void or stiff in responder suit. A raise should suggest 21-23 pts with at least 2 in partner suit and 2NT is art GF (but it never happend so far).

 

ex

1C-2C(D)

2D (15-20 many shapes) is going to be bid 90% of the times can be a stiff D

2M is natural (in our system its 15-17 but it can easily be 15-20 with zero problems in standard strong clubs system)

2Nt (art GF)

3C natural

3D (21-23 pts at least 2D)

3M for us its GF nat

 

All in all in a 15+ strong clubs most of the 6 card suits are GF not weak (the SP are elsewhere), and even when the suit is weak in a weak hand its often the best spot anyway.

 

Of course if its 5503 vs ??6? we will reach an ugly spot. But imo the preemptive effect and better overall partscore and magic games are just bigger plusses.

 

At the one level.

 

1C-1D-

 

1H = at least 3H 15-20 (not often 17-18)

1S = at least 3S 15-20 (not often 17-18)

1NT 17-18 bal denies 4H/ may have 4 even 5S

2C 15-20 nat unbal

2D any near GF hands

2H 4 trumps support 20-21

2S nat 17 pts

2NT = 21-22 bal

 

 

 

1C-1D-1H

 

pass im weak with 4/5 H

1S = inv no M or bal GF

1NT inv 4/5 S (not forcing)

2C = H+D GF or 6D inv

2D = H inv (note here we might play moysian fit) or H+C GF

2H = 6S inv (7-8 pts) or H+S GF

2S+ H+C GF

 

 

note that we are divising the hands 15-16& 19-20 vs 17-18/ so that when responder show an inv hand opener often has a clearcut choice. We are also often stopping at 1H/1S wich turn out to be a surprising winner so far.

 

hands where we dont have a fit

note that 8 vs 15-16 we are playing 1NT

6 vs 17-18 we are playing 1NT

0-5 vs 15-20 we are playing 1NT

only when opener is 21+ that we will play at least 2NT

 

We never miss a 44/53 H fit, we however might miss when opener has 5H and responder 3H.

We do miss some S fit when responder has H+S (0-6) and opener is 17-18 with 4S without 4H.

 

We often play in Moysian

good moysian at 2M (these are clearly better than 1NT in the long run).

random moysian at 1M (probably slightly better than 1Nt)

We do play some not so good Moysian 2H when responder is (6-8)INV with 4H & opener is 15-16 with 3H.