Timo special

[Phil]

Q9 Q9 AT8x AJxxx

 

W/r IMPs, long matches

 

(3♥) - x - (pass) -?

[mikeh]

Isn't this an auto 3N?

 

'auto' is an overbid, but 9 tricks seems closer than 11..and a stopper is as strong as it sounds.

 

Plus we aren't red, and it'll make the opps feel a little doubt about our actions in the future, which is never bad in a long match. Of course, the same could be said for partner :P

[JLOGIC]

I would definitely way rather pass than bid 3N.

[MrAce]

I don't know why my name is on the title of this topic but i would pass on a split second.

 

 

I am guessing Phil passed and they made it and he is pointing finger on me :P

[gnasher]

Partner has made a takeout double, I have a good hand with nine cards in two of the suits he's suggested, and I don't have a heart stop. I bid 4NT. AKxx x KQxx Qxxx would be nice.

[nige1]

W/r IMPs, long matches Q9 Q9 AT8x AJxxx

(3♥) - x - (pass) -?

IMO 4N = 10, 4♥ = 9, 5♣ = 8, 3N = 7, Pass= 6, 5N = 4, 6♣ = 3.

If partner is short in ♥ it seems we can treat this as a 32-36 point deck Our intermediate cards should help us to overcome expected bad breaks.

i.e I agree with Gnasher. Until I read the comments of JLOGIC and MrAce, I felt that we were almost as likely to make a slam as to get a good penalty from 3♥X

Edited May 14, 2012 by nige1

[fromageGB]

Are these suits in the right sequence? I can't imagine anyone wanting to bid 3NT with Q9 opposite a typical singleton heart !!!

But it's an OK hand for a minor, so 5♣. 4NT is not for me - partner has asked me to bid my best suit, so why not?

[Phil]

I don't know why my name is on the title of this topic but i would pass on a split second.

 

 

I am guessing Phil passed and they made it and he is pointing finger on me :P

 

Yes that's the origin of this title. I've seen you pass with hands like this all the time when it wouldn't even occur to me before I started playing with you.

 

Mark held a mundane ATxx Ax QJxx Qxx. Declarer's 3♥ was J KJTxxxx 9xx xx so we picked up 800 against the NV game (with a few overtricks) at the other table.

[jillybean]

I don't understand pass.

[han]

You have a 13-count, partner has doubled at the 3-level so has something like an opening hand. They are very likely to go down, possibly more than one (such as this time). Partner doesn't always have the perfect takeout shape with shortness in their suit. It is not clear that we can make a game, or even if we can, that we will bid to the right game if we pull.

 

In the end, it is a question of what will score best in the long run.

 

The best answer possibly also depends on the opponents. If LHO preempts extremely conservatively then perhaps 4NT is best. If LHO bids like a maniac at these colors then probably pass is best.

[jillybean]

The best answer possibly also depends on the opponents. If LHO preempts extremely conservatively then perhaps 4NT is best. If LHO bids like a maniac at these colors then probably pass is best.

Thanks. How do you respond if your opponents preempt style is unknown?

[Statto]

Thanks. How do you respond if your opponents preempt style is unknown?

Ask RHO what their pre-empt style is? :)

[the hog]

This is an automatic 4NT bid. Partner doubled for takeout. My lack of a H stopper eliminates 3NT. (Anyne who bids 3NT deserves the opps cashing the first 7 H tricks).

[Finch]

I play 4NT as natural, so I definitely wouldn't bid 4NT.

(If you think 4NT is 'pick a minor', what do you do with a natural 4NT bid? I play 4H as any two suits, by the way, so if I was not passing that is what I would bid)

[mikeh]

I play 4NT as natural, so I definitely wouldn't bid 4NT.

(If you think 4NT is 'pick a minor', what do you do with a natural 4NT bid?

 

I was wondering if I'd lost my mind, reading the votes for 4N as minors. I'm pleased to see that, if I have, I have excellent company.

[han]

Without saying whether 4NT should be minors or natural, I would recommend passing with a natural 4NT bid at these colors.

[mikeh]

Without saying whether 4NT should be minors or natural, I would recommend passing with a natural 4NT bid at these colors.

Well, you might just be collecting 500 or 800 against a cold slam, when opener has a real vulnerable 3♥, you have short top hearts, and partner extras with a long suit. You hold AQ tight in hearts and partner a stiff....not a holding I am personally yearning for on defence, especially if dummy has a ruffing value.

 

The former is likely enough, at this heat, while the latter (partner having the values to drive to slam over a natural 4N) may not be. But I think it a mistake to assume that there is no need for a natural 4N at these colours....and I see Frances' solution as being an excellent compromise.

 

Besides, few partnerships will be detailed enough to agree that the meaning of 4N varies according to vulnerability...and if you play 4N as natural, say red v white, how do you show the minors, and why not do that all the time anyway?

[the hog]

Without saying whether 4NT should be minors or natural, I would recommend passing with a natural 4NT bid at these colors.

 

I agree. Why on earth would you bid 4NT to play here?

[mikeh]

I agree. Why on earth would you bid 4NT to play here?

because they are better bidders than you?

 

You asked, so don't complain about the answer

[jdeegan]

:P 5♣. 4NT is probably equally good if I were sure partner would not misread it. Chances are we have two losers - maybe the ♠ ace and a ♥. Vul vs nvul preempts spook me a little, so I plan just to stay fixed.

[gnasher]

(If you think 4NT is 'pick a minor', what do you do with a natural 4NT bid? I play 4H as any two suits, by the way, so if I was not passing that is what I would bid)

You could ask the same question about any 4NT bid in competition. Some 4NT bids are more useful as natural, and some 4NT bids are more useful as two places to play. I agree that this is a fairly close decision.

 

By playing 4NT as natural you gain a balanced slam try, but you lose

3

♥

dbl pass 4

♥

pass 4

♠

pass 5

♣

as a natural slam try, and/or

3

♥

dbl pass 4

♥

pass 4

♠

pass 4NT

as Keycard for spades

[han]

Well, you might just be collecting 500 or 800 against a cold slam

 

If that's the worst case scenario, how bad can this be? On a bad day we'll score 500 or 800 versus 990. On a good day we'll collect 1100 versus making a game or going down in slam.

 

Looking at what the actual player had makes me think that a vulnerable against not preempt may not always be what you and I would expect from our partners.

[bluecalm]

You post very difficult hands. It's another post I open and have no idea what to do :)

My instinct is that 3NT is better than passing but I am not sure at all about it.

 

Btw, I think 4NT should be natural but our hand is not nearly strong enough for the bid.

[karlson]

Well, you might just be collecting 500 or 800 against a cold slam, when opener has a real vulnerable 3♥, you have short top hearts, and partner extras with a long suit. You hold AQ tight in hearts and partner a stiff....not a holding I am personally yearning for on defence, especially if dummy has a ruffing value.

 

The former is likely enough, at this heat, while the latter (partner having the values to drive to slam over a natural 4N) may not be. But I think it a mistake to assume that there is no need for a natural 4N at these colours....and I see Frances' solution as being an excellent compromise.

 

Besides, few partnerships will be detailed enough to agree that the meaning of 4N varies according to vulnerability...and if you play 4N as natural, say red v white, how do you show the minors, and why not do that all the time anyway?

 

It seems hard to imagine that we have a hand with only 2 (or even 3) hearts, partner made a takeout double of hearts, and there's no suit that we would like to seriously suggest as trumps. We should be able to make a slam try after starting with 4h.

 

I thought this 4N was obviously minors until reading the discussion, and remain unconvinced.

[MrAce]

 

I thought this 4N was obviously minors until reading the discussion, and remain unconvinced.

 

It depends who you are asking to.

 

4♥ for most people is 2 places to play, 2 suiter, or whatever you want to call it. Minors are pretty much covered here.

 

This leaves 4 NT

 

-Asking aces

-Natural

-Some sort of 5 minor bid with the intention of telling pd that we want to play 5 minor (1 suited hand) and we have no desire to play slam ( means we already stretched our hand to make this bid), while direct 5 minor shows real values to play game and slam availibility if pd believes we have what it takes. Or you can vice versa the meaning of 4NT and 5m bids, i personally like this way because i want my pd to know which minor i have when i suggest him it is OK to bid slam.

 

But whatever you decide to play, it will still be better than using this as minors, because you can easily have minors covered in 4♥ bid as i said.