1H 1N 2S

[Deanrover]

Assume 2/1. You open 1H, p replies 1N, you bid 2S. What natural hands coudl you have?

 

Well you must be 5~6 at least in the Majors, with a hand strong enough to reverse, but not strong enough to open 2 clubs with. This seems way too restrictive.

 

Time and time again I see people struggle with rebids over 1H~1N. Typically this is when they have a hand like

 

Axx

AKJxxx

x

AKx

 

and they vascillate between 4H, 4d (splinter) and 3C. Normally they make a Fake Jump Shift into 3C. It is not nice to lie to partner. Furthermore, when you actually do have a 3C bid, i.e.

 

Ax

AKJxx

x

AKxxx

 

Partner has no idea whether you have a real suit. How good a holding is QTxx in clubs?

 

IMHO 2S should be used as a relay to 2N in order to allow better hand definition. Does such a scheme exist?

[Deanrover]

E.g.

 

1H~1N

 

3C, 3D are both natural

3H is natural, emphasis on hearts, and invitational.

3S, 4C, 4D are self supporting splinters.

 

2S is a GF relay to 2N. However partner can break it with slam interest and a suit/

 

3C shows the 5~6 type hand

3D shows a 3613ish hand

3H shows a 3631ish hand

3S shows a 1633ish hand

3N shows 0544.

 

Haven't really put too much thought into optimal responses, but this should kick off the debate.

[Deanrover]

Btw, you wouldnt want to reverse with a 4~6 or 4~5 hand because your pard has already denied 4 spades.

[mycroft]

The first question that was asked when this exact auction came up and we chatted about it in the bar afterward was "do you play Flannery?" I don't, so the above args make sense. If you do, however, 1H-1NT; 2S as a standard reverse is almost forced, as responder will bypass a 4-card spade suit, knowing you don't have it (unless you're of reverse strength or 4-7 or whatever).

 

Here's an idea for us "if it begins with F, we don't play it" people, though: 2S as an "amorphous minimum reverse", allowing 2NT Lebensohl. This makes 3m now GF opposite "I really wanted to bail in 2om, pd".

 

Michael.

P.S. 4th suit forcing begins with a "4". And I am leaning towards breaking the rule for flip-flop Dormer :-).

[Guest Jlall]

While i disagree that the natural 2S bid isnt useful with a 4-5 or 4-6 hand since the goal of bidding is getting to the best contract. This is not necessarily an 8 card + fit all the time, as you know dean. 2S is a descriptive bid and sometimes can help you avoid a bad 3N. We need to be freed from the mindset of the goal of bidding is to find 8 card major suit fits which we are taught early on. That being said, I think the idea of 2S forcing 2N is an excellent idea, and gains much more than it loses. Your followup scheme doesnt seem optimal, I will try tweaking around with this idea and see what i can come up with. Excellent idea.

[inquiry]

Hi Dean.

 

I will start with what works for me. There is little need for a convention like this the way I play. My 2♣ opening bid includes in its definition acol two bids in a either major. So this removes a lot of potential hands you are worried about from the mix, and a jump rebid to 3 of the major for the exceptional hand that falls short of the quick trick requirements for the two club opening bid work fine.

 

So the monster one suiters are gone. No need for 2♠ Game forcing relay, followed by 3 of my own suit. Add to that, my method handles the same hands when my first suit is spades, something your structure leaves out.

 

NExt, the concerrn that 1H-1NT-2C might get passed out if you have a great hand with one suit not "suitable" for a jump to 3 of the major. In the long run, this is probably for the best. Because 2C is **VIRTUALLY** forcing. The only way parnter can pass is if he has only one heart (or a void), and his suit is clubs. And even then, if he has a little something, he will raise to 3♣, and if he fits clubs and has more than a little something, he will make an impossible 2♠ bid himself.

 

On the other hand, when do you really need a 2♠ rebid? To show your shape (4-6 or 5-6) and extra values. This is the best of both worlds, SHAPE and VALUE showing bid. A nebulous 2S relay might fail to find, for instance, your great 5-3 club fit and partner with some suitable extra values.

 

So for me, this is a convention without any real value to my bidding system.

 

Having said that, if hands like you showed could be included in 1♥ opening bids, there is some advantage to this concept. I use a similar concept on 1minor-1any-2other minor, without it being a transfer. That is, I play 2 of the other minor as a one round force. Yes this causes some rebid problems, we can discuss the full treatment in another thread (which includes, reverse flannery by responsder and 1m-2S as the only weak jump shift I play) if anyone is interested. So I can see some merit in this treatment of 2S as artificial and force. But for me, I will stick with tried and true. I would be interested to see how this works out for you.

 

Ben

[pclayton]

This sounds a little like Meckstroth Adjunct, which is discussed in Hardy's last 2/1 book. He suggests 1 major - 1N - 2N as an all purpose bid to show different hand types unsuitable for a jump shift. It clarifies the jump shifts and jump rebids too. I don't remember all of the rigamorole, and didn't care too much, since my 2♣ opener covers these strong hand types.

 

It sounds like thats the direction you are going. I'll watch with interest.

[junyi_zhu]

Assume 2/1. You open 1H, p replies 1N, you bid 2S. What natural hands coudl you have?

 

Well you must be 5~6 at least in the Majors, with a hand strong enough to reverse, but not strong enough to open 2 clubs with. This seems way too restrictive.

 

Time and time again I see people struggle with rebids over 1H~1N. Typically this is when they have a hand like

 

Axx

AKJxxx

x

AKx

 

and they vascillate between 4H, 4d (splinter) and 3C. Normally they make a Fake Jump Shift into 3C. It is not nice to lie to partner. Furthermore, when you actually do have a 3C bid, i.e.

 

Ax

AKJxx

x

AKxxx

 

Partner has no idea whether you have a real suit. How good a holding is QTxx in clubs?

 

IMHO 2S should be used as a relay to 2N in order to allow better hand definition. Does such a scheme exist?

yes, I wrote a structure on this issue one year ago.

Over 1H 1N

2S(GF)

2N is a relay:

3C: true spades, value in C

3D: true spades, value in D.

3H: strong heart one suiter, GF(can also have 4 spades without value in C or D).

3S: 5-6, forcing.

3N: balanced GF with 6 hearts.

4C/D/H: self splinter, heart is strong, but not solid.

 

over 1H 1N 2S

3C/D: long suit, heart shortness and forcing.

3H: weak, tend to be sign off.

3S/4C/D: invitational with 3 hearts and the control in the suit you bid.

3N: 3-3-4-3 or 3-3-3-4 shape, invitational, nonforcing.

 

You may have a problem with 4-5-2-2 and 15-16, you have to rebid 2C here.

With 17-18, you can bid 2NT over 1NT.

 

with 4-5-3-1 or 4-5-1-3, 15-18, you can just bid 2 m.

 

With solid H and strong, you can self splinter directly.

With 5-3-3-2 shape, 19, you can just rebid 3NT and hope to make it.

 

It can also apply for 1D 1N 2H: you can here use 2S as a relay, similiar

stuff.

2S: relay:

2N: 4-4-4-1 or 5-4-4-0, 3C to ask for the position of the singleton. 3D: C, 3H: H, 3S: S.

3C: true hearts, value in C.

3D: diamond one suiter, GF.

3H: 5-6

3S: true hearts, value in S.

3N: 6 diamonds, balanced, 19.

 

With 4 H + 5D, 16-18 hands,

you have to bid either 2NT with 17-18 or 2D and hope partner could give you a raise.

 

1C 1N

2D (GF)

2H: relay:

2S: true diamonds, sp value.

2N: exact 4-4-1-4 or 4-4-0-5 shape.

3C: C one suiter, GF.

3D: 5-6

3H: h value, true diamonds.

3N: 6 clubs, balanced, 19.

 

with 4D-5C, you have to either bid 2NT or 2C and hope to survive that round.

If your 1NT guarantees 3 clubs, you can also bid 3C.

[inquiry]

yes, I wrote a structure on this issue one year ago.

Over 1H 1N

2S(GF)

2N is a relay:

3C: true spades, value in C

 

snip

I like the responding structure after a nebulous forcing 2♠. This seems very playable to me, and if you are going to use 2♠ as dean suggested, looks like junyi_zhu has a very nice scheme. So nice, I might adopt it despite my earlier critique of the 2♠ bid.

[fred]

Btw, you wouldnt want to reverse with a 4~6 or 4~5 hand because your pard has already denied 4 spades.

Disagree. In my experience it is not at all rare to encounter hands with 4 spades with which I prefer 1NT a response to a 1S response after partner's 1H opening.

 

Here are 2 prototypes:

 

xxxx

x

xx

KQJ10xx

 

Respond 1S and good luck getting to clubs (or any sensible contract for that matter). Respond 1NT and you can still play in clubs.

 

xxxx

Axx

xxx

xxx

 

If you respond 1S will you like it if partner raises you (especially if he can do so with 3-card support)?

 

Respond 1NT instead so you can get to 2H I am assuming that this hand is not appropriate for an initial 2H raise - that is a partnership matter.

 

Similar considerations apply to some bad hands with 4 spades and 2 hearts.

 

Your bidding idea still has merit (and you should not be surprised to learn that it has been around for a while), but I disagree with the notion that you can forget about a 4-4 spade fit after the bidding starts 1H-1NT.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[the hog]

17-18, S shortness, with at least 3/4 4/3 in the minors.

Over this 4m is forcing.

[pbleighton]

A standard reverse, 5+H, 4+S, and probably just 5-4. 5-4 is going to occur far more frequently than 6-4 or 6-5, and you need to show it. How do you do that if you don't reverse?

 

With 6-4s, rebid 3H or 4H, depending on hand strength.

 

With 6-5s, bid 2S followed by 3S, or 4S if pd jumps to 3NT.

 

Not elegant, but you bid more hands more accurately.

 

Peter

[Deanrover]

Btw, you wouldnt want to reverse with a 4~6 or 4~5 hand because your pard has already denied 4 spades.

Disagree. In my experience it is not at all rare to encounter hands with 4 spades with which I prefer 1NT a response to a 1S response after partner's 1H opening.

 

Here are 2 prototypes:

 

xxxx

x

xx

KQJ10xx

 

Respond 1S and good luck getting to clubs (or any sensible contract for that matter). Respond 1NT and you can still play in clubs.

 

xxxx

Axx

xxx

xxx

 

If you respond 1S will you like it if partner raises you (especially if he can do so with 3-card support)?

 

Respond 1NT instead so you can get to 2H I am assuming that this hand is not appropriate for an initial 2H raise - that is a partnership matter.

 

Similar considerations apply to some bad hands with 4 spades and 2 hearts.

 

Your bidding idea still has merit (and you should not be surprised to learn that it has been around for a while), but I disagree with the notion that you can forget about a 4-4 spade fit after the bidding starts 1H-1NT.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

I was always taugh to never bid 1N if you could show a 4 card major at the one level. Is this bad advice. In bridge "never say never", but the way this advice was given to me was NEVER rather than never. If you NEVER bid 1N surpassing a 4 cd. M how much would you be giving up?

 

Take your

 

xxxx

x

xx

KQJ10xx

 

hand

 

If partner had a hand like

 

AKTx

Axxxx

xx

Ax

 

How do you find 4 spades in 2/1 after a 1N reply?

 

Even if the notstrongenoughtoreversebut4spadesisstillagoodcontract hand is extremely rare, what about a more common hand such as

 

AKTx

AKxxx

xx

xx

 

You figure to make the same number of tricks in clubs and spades. At matchpoints, being in clubs would be a disaster. So would your decision whether to bid 1N or 1S be dependent upon form of scoring?

[Guest Jlall]

dean, a much bigger risk when you have 1-2 in the reds is that pard will bid 1H p 1S p 2D and u'll be screwed. Bridge is a game of percentages, with a long good suit and nothing else and 4 small spades its percentage to bid 1N so you can get to a safe club contract.

[EricK]

dean, a much bigger risk when you have 1-2 in the reds is that pard will bid 1H p 1S p 2D and u'll be screwed. Bridge is a game of percentages, with a long good suit and nothing else and 4 small spades its percentage to bid 1N so you can get to a safe club contract.

How many Club honours would you have to move to spades before you decided that you could no longer afford to suppress the spades on the 4-1-2-6 hand?

 

Eric

[junyi_zhu]

dean, a much bigger risk when you have 1-2 in the reds is that pard will bid 1H p 1S p 2D and u'll be screwed. Bridge is a game of percentages, with a long good suit and nothing else and 4 small spades its percentage to bid 1N so you can get to a safe club contract.

How many Club honours would you have to move to spades before you decided that you could no longer afford to suppress the spades on the 4-1-2-6 hand?

 

Eric

With any 7 card minor suits(perhaps except very weak 7 card suits), I think one should bypass 1S regardless his hand strength. With strong 6 card minor suits(that suit is playable facing a singleton), he should probably bypass weak spade suits. The logic here is that with 7 cards in hand, it usually plays well in your 7 card suits.

This principle is also true when raising partner, with Sxxx HKxx DKQJxxxx C-, facing a 1S opening, I'd bid 1NT and hope to show my diamonds next round unless partner shows 6 spades in the next round, in that case, I'd raise him. It's even true when you do 2/1 GF, suppose you hold SAxx HKxx DKQJTxxx, you should bid 2D over 1S and probably rebid 3D(which is GF) to bypass your support in spades.

If you belong to slams, diamond is the most likely trump suit than spades.

Your partner can easily hold SJT9xx HAQx Dx CAKxx, in this case, 6D would be the only makable slam. This can be called when to raise your partner and when not to raise your partner issue. Another situation to bypass your 4 card spades is when you are balanced and rather weak, Sxxxx Hxx DKJTx CQT9x, you probably want to bid 1NT here and hope to be able to play it if partner passes with balanced minimum. Even if your partner holds 4 spades, you still may have a good play in NT. The basic idea is that when you are weak, you can't lose very good 4S in this situation, and even if you have 8 cards fit in spades, you still may belong to 3NT.

We all know 4S is quite hopeless if partner holds Qxxx AKQJx DAx CKx, but 3NT has way better chance to make.

[Flame]

With no special agrement this bid show 5-4 in the majors, not 6-5.