Playing in a suit not agreed to

[dwar0123]

So an odd hand showed up that seems to have the easiest auction ever if you first agree to a suit and then bid to play in a different one.

 

I am wondering which of these auctions this would actually be considered ok on(if any) and which this would be considered dangerous.

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sk8432hjdacaj8763&n=saq9hakq987643d5c&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sp]266|200[/hv]

 

So my partner didn't know how to bid this safely so he just bailed with this auction(opponents always silent)

 

1♠-2♥-3♣-6♥-ppp

 

For minus 2 imps in an online imp tourny in what I am sure you must agree is a fairly weak field. Ie, slightly more people bid 7 then failed to even bid 6.

 

Initially I suggested he should support spades over 3♣ then ask via rkc and then bid 7♥ with my response. He was worried I might correct to 7♠.

 

Now most of the field got there via 1♠-4n-5♣/♦-7♥.

 

Obviously if a poor control count in given, then 6♥ has to be equally clear as to play.

 

It seems likely that you can only do this if you are deciding between 6-7, as I don't think 5♥ can be to play.

 

So my questions.

1. To reassure my partner, is 6♥ or 7♥ clearly to play in these auctions.

 

2. Which is more clear, showing hearts, supporting spades and then demanding to play hearts, or just doing rkc directly over 1♠ and then bidding hearts over what ever response(or are both equally clearly to play)

 

3. If I can convince my partner to play exclusion blackwood, which would obviously be far superior with his hand, does anything change with respect to agreeing and bidding something different.

 

4. Anything obvious I didn't ask and should have?

[Statto]

I would bid 3♠ after 3♣. Now a combination of cue bidding and RKCB should get you to the 7 level where you bid 7♥ pass or correct. I wouldn't mind terribly if we end up in 7♠, as it's better than the required odds, though obviously would prefer to be in 7NT, particularly at MPs.

[Antrax]

Why doesn't south open 1♣? Was it artificial? It seems life is much easier if N can force to game on the 2-level.

[dwar0123]

Why doesn't south open 1♣? Was it artificial? It seems life is much easier if N can force to game on the 2-level.

Not sure I understand. We play 2/1, so north's 2♥ was game forcing.

 

As for opening 1♠ when 5-6, that is just how we learned it in the clubs when starting out and never really saw the need to change it. Thinking about it, while I agree I am total points strong enough to reverse, I am not hcp strong enough. Further, being so low on hcp, I can expect frequent competition and feel getting the major in as a definite 5 carder is important, especially at mp, which is what we normally play.

[Zelandakh]

1♣ - 2♥

2♠ - 3♥

3♠ - 5♣

5♥ - 7♥

 

certainly seems to work ok if you only want to reach 7♥.

 

Most low level pairs play any slam bid as to play. Better pairs usually add SSAa (third round asks) to that. Once you have accounted for all of the asks/shows you want to have then you can use any additional bids how you want and natural is a reasonable option. So, for example, with spades agreed and partner responding 5♦ to RKCB, 6♥ would for me be a SSA in hearts. However, if the response had been 5♣ it is possible to use 5NT as the SSA in hearts allowing 6♥ to have a different meaning. You could potentially play it as natural; alternatively as, for example, a cooperative grand try.

 

For Q2 I think it is clearer to show your hand, which means showing the hearts. Whether you decide in the end to agree hearts or spades is another matter. On this hand you would hope to be able to find 7NT either way although that is not completely simple with 2 hands of failry extreme distribution. Strangley, not play Exclusion might even help here (if you decided to Blacky anyway) since you easily find the ♣A and ♠K. Fairly shocking that players were responding 4NT with a void and then reaching 7♥ rather than 7NT!

[Antrax]

What does reversing have to do with it? What 2-level response do you expect? Or do you find partner often replies 1NT to your 1♣ opener?

 

If your 2/1 was forcing to game, I really don't understand the jump to 6♥. N should be able to either agree on spades on the 3-level or set H as trump at the 3-level, depending on what seems better. Then you have an entire level for cue-bidding and getting S to keycard, and once he confirms all the keycards for ♠, N can easily count 14 tricks in NT.

[tobinator]

For me you just have to get KC ask in early, by bidding would simply go:

 

1♠-5♣(exclusion)-5♠(2KC (exc.A♣) no Q)-7♥-P

 

I don't think partner has any reason to correct to 7♠

[Stephen Tu]

I don't think it's a problem of correcting 7h to 7s. The problem comes when you want to stop in 6h. A fair # of partnerships, if spades are agreed, are going to use 6h as a third round heart control ask; it's more likely you are looking for some grand with something like oh Aqxxx AKJxx Kqx -, not wanting to be in grand opposite Kxxxx xxx Axx AQ, rather than this 9 solid heart construction.

 

For a fair # of partnerships it might be difficult to unambiguously set hearts as trumps + also use exclusion. Unless you make some agreement that 1s-2h-(2s/2nt/3c/3d/3h)-5c is exclusion with hearts agreed. Which is probably perfectly reasonable, but given the infrequency of sequences like 1s-2h-3c-5c, are you going to remember, and trust partner to remember? Exclusion often isn't even discussed even among somewhat regular partnerships since it comes up so seldom.

[mike777]

yes How do you stop in 6h? or for that matter stop in 5h?

 

I suppose if it starts:

 

1c=1h

1s=2d!

2s=?

 

you might just be tempted to rkc in spades now and take your chances that pards hcp are in his 6-5 suits.

[aguahombre]

We will, on occasion, set one suit as trump for the purpose of finding out Key cards and convert at the final level. But, unless the conversion is to a higher suit or Notrump, this ploy is an accident waiting to happen.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

We will, on occasion, set one suit as trump for the purpose of finding out Key cards and convert at the final level. But, unless the conversion is to a higher suit or Notrump, this ploy is an accident waiting to happen.

I was thinking the same thing.

It worked here ( for 7H ) because ALL key cards were found.

But what if one is missing ?

 

What if South had: [ changed it to a 'real' 1S opener ]

♠ K J 10 8 x x

♥ J

♦ x

♣ A K J x x

 

1S - 4NT

5H ( 2 - ♠ Q ) - 6H ( Is this "to play" or "3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask " ? )

7S ( yes, have 3rd Rnd Ctrl in ♥)

Edited May 11, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[Stephen Tu]

One thing that should be standard knowledge is that 1s-4nt should be straight blackwood, not RKC for spades. Then obviously 6 of a suit is to play.

 

If you want to RKC for spades you can always throw in your forcing raise first.

[mike777]

btw playing xyz the auction would start:

 

1c=1h

1s=3h(slam try in h)

?

 

 

3h showing a stronger h hand than 2d and then 3h.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

btw playing xyz the auction would start:

 

1c=1h

1s=3h(slam try in h)

?

 

3h showing a stronger h hand than 2d and then 3h.

Excellent point about using xyz.

 

So, how do you think the auction would continue ?

 

We are now in a GF situation and ♥ are definitely in the picture; so, we can put to rest the notion that a high level ♥ bid is anything else but the final trump suit.

 

Questions:

Does 3H "set trumps" and demand cuebids ?

Thus, if Opener rebid ♠ ( 3S ); would this be a cue bid and NOT be shape-showing ?

 

3S - 4NT ( would this then be RKC for Hts and not ♠ ? )

 

3S - 5C ( Would this be Exclusion-RKC for ♥ ? )

 

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If 3S were a cue bid and 5C! = Exclusion , then 7H is imminent !

[phil_20686]

If you bid exclusion over 1S, and then bid some number of hearts, that is always to play. If you start by biding exclusion over a one level bid, then you are not going to attempt some subtle asking bid at the 6 level. This is almost always a hand with a solid suit that will have a gazillion tricks if you have the K of your suit. So I would have bid 1S-5d-5N(2)-7H.

[mike777]

No agreements here but I doubt 3h sets trumps in XYZ

 

In other words 3s or 3nt I would think are natural but 4d would be a cue for hearts.

 

--

 

 

I still dont get those that open 1s here rather than 1c.

 

--

[P_Marlowe]

Not sure I understand. We play 2/1, so north's 2♥ was game forcing.

 

As for opening 1♠ when 5-6, that is just how we learned it in the clubs when starting out and never really saw the need to change it. Thinking about it, while I agree I am total points strong enough to reverse, I am not hcp strong enough. Further, being so low on hcp, I can expect frequent competition and feel getting the major in as a definite 5 carder is important, especially at mp, which is what we normally play.

If 2H was already gf, than 3H.

South will be happy to hear, if partner has

a 6 card spade suit.

 

And if partner bids 3NT, bidding 4D is a cue /

slam try, setting hearts as trumps.

 

The point is, you always can jump to 6H, but maybe

parter finds a bid, that helps you.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[TWO4BRIDGE]

No agreements here but I doubt 3h sets trumps in XYZ

 

In other words 3s or 3nt I would think are natural but 4d would be a cue for hearts.

 

- - - - - - - - - -

 

I still dont get those that open 1s here rather than 1c.

 

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One more question on this unusual hand .

Let's say 1C open; xyz ; 3S is natural, but what about 4D! by Responder ( over 3S ) ?? :

 

1C - 1H

1S - 3H! ( xyz ; GF, slam try in ♥, stronger than going thru 2D; but does not set ♥ as trumps )

3S ( natural ) - 4D! ( is this a cue for ♥ or ♠ as trump ? )

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk8432hjdacaj8763&n=saq9hakq987643d5c&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=1sp]300|400| dwarf0124 writes:

1. To reassure my partner, is 6♥ or 7♥ clearly to play in these auctions.

2. Which is more clear, showing hearts, supporting spades and then demanding to play hearts, or just doing rkc directly over 1♠ and then bidding hearts over what ever response(or are both equally clearly to play)

3. If I can convince my partner to play exclusion blackwood, which would obviously be far superior with his hand, does anything change with respect to agreeing and bidding something different.

4. Anything obvious I didn't ask and should have?

 

IMO

1. A matter of agreement. Some partnerships agree that a jump to a slam suggests a place to play.

2. 4N (RKCB for ♠) is OK when partner turns up with 3 key-cards, Whatever partner thinks your bidding means, you settle in a safer and higher scoring 7N.

3. Manifestly, in general, exclusion agreeing ♠ is a more effective route (especially If partner doesn't hold ♣A).

4. How many reached 7N?[/hv]