Did the wrong team win trials (Appeal Board 69)

[JLOGIC]

Also, I am guessing what really happened is Brad just got crucified for his later play. If I was on the committee, I would not have given Brad the full adjustment, because his subsequent play of the hand was really a huge error, and did not satisfy continuing to play bridge after an infraction. It is unfortunate, because I'm sure Brad was pissed when this was happening and got distracted which caused him to err later in the play, it seems a little unfair that if none of this had happened I am 100 % Brad would have made the hand, given that Brad was the non offender, but there ya go.

[fred]

As you might have guessed if you read the interview, I am not exactly eager to talk about this hand, but for the record...

 

Confirmed: The Queen of hearts was a non-systemic lead and the Appeals Committee was made aware of this.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

[chudecek]

As you might have guessed if you read the interview, I am not exactly eager to talk about this hand, but for the record...

 

Confirmed: The Queen of hearts was a non-systemic lead and the Appeals Committee was made aware of this.

 

Fred Gitelman

Bridge Base Inc.

www.bridgebase.com

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s865h972dak97ckq3&w=skt7ht863d83ct965&n=sqj32haj54d64ca84&e=sa94hkqdqjt52cj72&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1c1d3dp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Continuing with D10 after the HQ holds cannot beat the hand whether declarer has H AJxx or Axxx.

 

Meckstroth led DJ, K, 3, 4

Moss led S5, 7, Q, 4

Moss led C4, 2, Q, 5 (Count by Eric?)

Moss led S6, T, J, A

Meckstroth led HQ, 2, 3, 5

 

For whatever reason – skill, experience, whatever - Jeff led HQ.

It HELD as Eric played H3 which HAD to be attitude. Now Jeff shifted to D10.

 

Declarer simply wins the diamond in dummy as the D8 falls. Now declarer leads dummy's last spade

as Eric wins. Declarer has remaining a good spade, heart A?x C Ax. Eric has only hearts

and clubs left. If he leads a heart, Moss goes up Ace and on the actual hand HK falls for trick nine.

If the heart king does not fall, declarer cashes his spade, plays Ace and a club to dummy, and leads

D9 as Meckstroth has only diamonds left and must give dummy D7.

 

If Eric leads a club, Moss goes up Ace and cashes his HA as HK falls for trick nine.

If the heart king does not fall, declarer cashes his spade, plays a club to dummy, and leads

D9 as Meckstroth has only diamonds left and must give dummy D7.

 

The diamond continuation by Meckstroth was a losing play regardless.

[CSGibson]

[hv=pc=n&s=s865h972dak97ckq3&w=skt7ht863d83ct965&n=sqj32haj54d64ca84&e=sa94hkqdqjt52cj72&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1c1d3dp3nppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Continuing with D10 after the HQ holds cannot beat the hand whether declarer has H AJxx or Axxx.

 

Meckstroth led DJ, K, 3, 4

Moss led S5, 7, Q, 4

Moss led C4, 2, Q, 5 (Count by Eric?)

Moss led S6, T, J, A

Meckstroth led HQ, 2, 3, 5

 

For whatever reason – skill, experience, whatever - Jeff led HQ.

It HELD as Eric played H3 which HAD to be attitude. Now Jeff shifted to D10.

 

Declarer simply wins the diamond in dummy as the D8 falls. Now declarer leads dummy's last spade

as Eric wins. Declarer has remaining a good spade, heart A?x C Ax. Eric has only hearts

and clubs left. If he leads a heart, Moss goes up Ace and on the actual hand HK falls for trick nine.

If the heart king does not fall, declarer cashes his spade, plays Ace and a club to dummy, and leads

D9 as Meckstroth has only diamonds left and must give dummy D7.

 

If Eric leads a club, Moss goes up Ace and cashes his HA as HK falls for trick nine.

If the heart king does not fall, declarer cashes his spade, plays a club to dummy, and leads

D9 as Meckstroth has only diamonds left and must give dummy D7.

 

The diamond continuation by Meckstroth was a losing play regardless.

 

Meckstroth and Rodwell regularly make plays that are double-dummy losing plays, but which give them more chances to beat the hand single dummy. I don't think double-dummy analysis is the only leg you should stand on when evaluating the hand.

 

Meckstroth knew that Rodwell was going to be encouraging any time the Q held - he had to with some combination of AJT outstanding. The fact that he led the Q is evidence, in my opinion, that he was not concerned with the signal given by Rodwell, and that he had the action planned to give declarer a losing option - which declarer took. It's unfortunate that Rodwell took so long, because all of this is only speculation, but I can definitely be convinced that Meckstroth was not influenced by the tempo.

 

On the other hand, its doubly unfortunate that this took place against Brad and Fred, because they are so sensitive to their own tempo-signals and the ethical implications that it provides a stark contrast for those that want one.

 

Edit: I just saw that Justin beat me to this thought process.

[bluecalm]

and that he had the action planned to give declarer a losing option - which declarer took. It's unfortunate that Rodwell took so long, because all of this is only speculation, but I can definitely be convinced that Meckstroth was not influenced by the tempo

.

 

It doesn't matter what he planned what he would played etc. Either playing 2nd heart was logical alternative or it wasn't.

If it was then the question is Moss made hazardous play or big mistake if he didn't then score should be changed.

[chudecek]

Meckstroth and Rodwell regularly make plays that are double-dummy losing plays, but which give them more chances to beat the hand single dummy. I don't think double-dummy analysis is the only leg you should stand on when evaluating the hand.

 

Meckstroth knew that Rodwell was going to be encouraging any time the Q held - he had to with some combination of AJT outstanding. The fact that he led the Q is evidence, in my opinion, that he was not concerned with the signal given by Rodwell, and that he had the action planned to give declarer a losing option - which declarer took. It's unfortunate that Rodwell took so long, because all of this is only speculation, but I can definitely be convinced that Meckstroth was not influenced by the tempo.

 

On the other hand, its doubly unfortunate that this took place against Brad and Fred, because they are so sensitive to their own tempo-signals and the ethical implications that it provides a stark contrast for those that want one.

 

Edit: I just saw that Justin beat me to this thought process.

 

Why should a World Class player chose a play that requires an error, rather than choosing

a play CONSISTENT WITH PARTNER'S SIGNAL, which beats the hand when it is beatable?

[CSGibson]

Why should a World Class player chose a play that requires an error, rather than choosing

a play CONSISTENT WITH PARTNER'S SIGNAL, which beats the hand when it is beatable?

 

Geez, Carl, I don't know. Maybe because he thinks the error is more likely than the layout you proposed? I mean, this is ridiculous. Successful players play for errors rather than technical layouts all the time, even against top competition, because they believe the chance that opponents make an error to be a higher percentage. You are a good player, you should know that.

 

The fact that he led the Q indicated that he knew his partner's signal COULD NOT BE TRUSTED because Meckstroth had purposely given him the wrong information, and he knew that before leading the Q.

 

If Meck wanted to play for the technical layout, he would have led the king. His intention is clear when he leads the Q.

 

Now I am much more convinced by the thought that he's no longer allowed to be brilliant after partner's tempo issues than I am any of your technical jibber-jabber - don't read this as my saying the committee got this right. I just don't think your argument is particularly convincing.

[chudecek]

Geez, Carl, I don't know. Maybe because he thinks the error is more likely than the layout you proposed? I mean, this is ridiculous. Successful players play for errors rather than technical layouts all the time, even against top competition, because they believe the chance that opponents make an error to be a higher percentage. You are a good player, you should know that.

 

The fact that he led the Q indicated that he knew his partner's signal COULD NOT BE TRUSTED because Meckstroth had purposely given him the wrong information, and he knew that before leading the Q.

 

If Meck wanted to play for the technical layout, he would have led the king. His intention is clear when he leads the Q.

 

Now I am much more convinced by the thought that he's no longer allowed to be brilliant after partner's tempo issues than I am any of your technical jibber-jabber - don't read this as my saying the committee got this right. I just don't think your argument is particularly convincing.

 

If declarer had the heart king he had nine tricks after Meckstroth led the HQ. 2S 2H 2D 3C.

Rodwell knew that, and the whole world knew that, and Meckstroth knew that Rodwell would know that,

especially after a long tank. So Eric's attitude signal in hearts HAD to be trusted, because it was

consistent with H JTxx. So continuing with the HK is not only a logical alternative, it is

the SUPERIOR alternative and should have been required after Rodwell's long tank.

 

I'm not jibber-jabbering - I am describing conditions as they occurred.

[Hanoi5]

Wasn't it possible for Rodwell to have JTxx in hearts? Would he have taken a long time to give the signal then? Would Meck have shifted if the play/signal from Rodwell had been made in tempo?

[steve2005]

The problem is the long thinks. Rodwell thinking forever weather to show +ve or -ve attitude just slows the game down too much.

Matches at this high level each team should be timed and if you go over there should be a penalty. Not just a time limit for the combined teams(with one team possibly getting the blame).I watched several sessions of the match on vugraph and there was many very long huddles, surely they should make a decision and play.

 

Chess matches were long ago untimed and a single game could go on for days.

[CSGibson]

If declarer had the heart king he had nine tricks after Meckstroth led the HQ. 2S 2H 2D 3C.

Rodwell knew that, and the whole world knew that, and Meckstroth knew that Rodwell would know that,

especially after a long tank. So Eric's attitude signal in hearts HAD to be trusted, because it was

consistent with H JTxx. So continuing with the HK is not only a logical alternative, it is

the SUPERIOR alternative and should have been required after Rodwell's long tank.

 

I'm not jibber-jabbering - I am describing conditions as they occurred.

 

 

What weight are you giving to the fact that Moss didn't take the ace, which he might do with Axxx in order to block the suit?

[Hanoi5]

A bridge huddle cannot be compared to a chess huddle.

[CSGibson]

Meckstroth knew that Rodwell would know that,

especially after a long tank.

 

 

Are you suggesting that a long tank followed by the 3 would be MORE likely to show JTxx than an immediate positive signal? Or that Meckstroth should take into consideration the time that Eric tanked when deciding whether he had JTxx? Maybe Meckstroth's switch was out of a profound sense of ethics then, not taking advantage of his tank and positive signal, instead following through with his original plan.

[mikeh]

Nobody can win an argument on this thread, because, ultimately, the whole thread is pointless.

 

A committee made of experts from whom we have not heard has made a decision based on facts and explanations of which we have only a partial understanding (and I can well understand why Fred doesn't want to write about this situation, and he is the only poster in a position to actually say what happened, in detail, at the table and the committee).

 

Even Fred's perspective is incomplete. Those of us who have served on committees know that the parties to a hearing are given the result, and maybe a summary of the rationale, but are not told, when the decision is announced, precisely what discussion led to the eventual outcome. Appeal summaries, even when available, are just that, and reflect the decision, not the discussion that led to the decision. I know that sometimes a committee member may later tell a friend, whose case was heard, a bit more about what happened....I don't think that should take place, but we're all human...but even that isn't the full story.

 

We are, in other words, being asked to second-guess a decision made in good faith by competent people without knowing exactly what they were told, what they chose to accept, if there was any controversy about the facts, and precisely how they weighed or viewed the issues.

 

Yes, I can see how it would be possible, by making some relatively minor assumptions about the missing information, to determine that we wouldn't agree with the decision...but neither I nor Carl nor anyone else has the 'right' to make such assumptions and then bemoan the outcome on the basis that our assumptions are correct.

 

The case is over. No-one, including, I suspect, the Nickell team is 'happy' that this situation arose. It would be wonderful if no BITs ever happened, or if all cases were susceptible to a readily-apparent outcome. This is, however, the real world.

 

I suggest we move on. Another analogous situation will arise in the next few years, and we will have a new oxe to gore...this one's already dead.

[chudecek]

Are you suggesting that a long tank followed by the 3 would be MORE likely to show JTxx than an immediate positive signal? Or that Meckstroth should take into consideration the time that Eric tanked when deciding whether he had JTxx? Maybe Meckstroth's switch was out of a profound sense of ethics then, not taking advantage of his tank and positive signal, instead following through with his original plan.

 

 

No, I am stating that both Rodwell and Meckstroth knew the hand was unbeatable if declarer held the HK.

So from Rodwell's perspective, he must assign that card to Meckstroth. And since Eric did not hold JTxx,

he probably erred by playing a card (H3) that would encourage a continuation. And Meckstroth erred by

not continuing hearts after his Q held with the 3 being played on it, since Rodwell holding JTxx was the

only legitimate beat.

[bluecalm]

Is this appeal going to be public ?

No matter what one thinks about this hand it would be very interesting to read.

[pigpenz]

it was interesting that in the NY Times yesterday they never brought up anything about this hand having an appeal.

they only reported that Meckstroth broke ranks played ♥Q, Moss didnt take safety play and went down. Made it

sound like Meckstroth was genius for his approach when he broke system and played Q from KQ.

[chudecek]

it was interesting that in the NY Times yesterday they never brought up anything about this hand having an appeal.

they only reported that Meckstroth broke ranks played ♥Q, Moss didnt take safety play and went down. Made it

sound like Meckstroth was genius for his approach when he broke system and played Q from KQ.

 

Maybe Meckstroth led the Q to show a doubleton, knowing Rodwell could work out that he had the king.

[billw55]

Is this appeal going to be public ?

No matter what one thinks about this hand it would be very interesting to read.

Agree, and also: I wonder who was on the committee. When the contestants are eight of the best players in the world, it seems that peers would be in short supply!

[steve2005]

regarding long huddle. i think part of current Bob Hamman interview on BBO is pertinent.

 

What are the 3 things you wish to happen to bridge?

...

"2) A truly legitimate timing mechanism which would force all bids and defensive plays to be made with an even tempo. "

[blackshoe]

regarding long huddle. i think part of current Bob Hamman interview on BBO is pertinent.

 

What are the 3 things you wish to happen to bridge?

...

"2) A truly legitimate timing mechanism which would force all bids and defensive plays to be made with an even tempo. "

He said that, did he? If he's talking about high level bridge that's one thing. If he's talking about club level bridge, he's dreaming.

[bluecalm]

And here we can see the appeals: http://usbf.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=986&Itemid=397

 

This:

 

The director ruled and the committee affirmed that there was no unauthorized information, since the heart queen did not ask for jack-attitude and the indication was overwhelming that East never planned to continue hearts.

 

confirms that the committee doesn't know what they are doing.

It doesn't matter for existence of UI what E planned to do yet it's given as a reason. Deeply disappointing explanation imo.

[barmar]

No, it doesn't matter for the existence of UI, but it does suggest what LAs were available. From what he knew about the hand, continuing the suit was not an LA, so partner's attitude is irrelevant.

 

I think the TD and committee made the common mistake of conflating these two aspects of the UI laws in the writeup. If the UI is irrelevant to deciding among the LAs (or there's only one LA so no decision needs to be made), they will often write this up as if there were no UI -- they're only considering relevant UI.

[bluecalm]

I just hope they got it confused only in the write-up or they really shouldn't be doing the job.

Anyway, the verdict doesn't look that bad to me I can certainly see some justification for it but the explanation dissapoints greatly.

[Fluffy]

East took some time before playing the diamond 10, which was inconsistent with his planned defense contention. East denied that he took any appreciable time before switching to the diamond 10.

So who's lying?