How to open a weak black-2-suiter?

[xx1943]

Sorry there has been a mistake in creating this poll. The two first alternates are compressed together. I cannot correct this :P and asked Ben to do so.

 

 

Hi all,

 

would like to hear your suggestions how to handle a weak 5/5 in blacks with SAYC or 2/1.

 

[hv=d=s&v=n&s=saqxxxhxxdxcajxxx]133|100|Scoring: IMP[/hv].

 

A strong hand with 16+ HCP is sure worth a high reverse.

 

I would open 1♣ playing SAYC under most circumstances. Sometimes a 1 ♠ is more preemptive.

 

I would open 1♠ and rebid 2♠ playing 2/1, because partner had promised a second bid and I can show my clubs later.

 

If I had opened 1 ♠, my rebid over 2♦(♥) is always 2 ♠.

 

 

Btw. Kaplan Sheinwold would open 1♠ and rebid 2♠ even after responders 2♣, showing the minimum first and fit later.

 

I hope your discussion will be very instructive for our Billies.

 

I'm looking forward your replies.

 

Regards

 

Al

Edited November 9, 2004 by xx1943

[Gerardo]

I corrected it. However, there are two votes for the previously combined option which are now accounted to "Open 1♣", which I don't know if belong there or to the new option.

[xx1943]

I corrected it. However, there are two votes for the previously combined option which are now accounted to "Open 1♣", which I don't know if belong there or to the new option.

ty

 

Al

[PriorKnowledge]

I will open this hand 1S whether strong or weak.

 

It is important not to have a "bidding disaster."

 

If you open 1C, it will take 2 more bids to show your 5-card spade suit. If the opps start bidding the red suits, you might not get 2 more bids. Or your partner may want to sign off with a weak hand. 1C 1H 1S 2H ? Now what? Bid 2S and play in a 5-1 spade fit rather than a 6/7 - 1 heart fit? Or 1C 1H 1S 3N ? Are you missing a 5-3 spade fit?

 

If you open 1S and never get a chance to show your clubs, that is annoying.

 

If you open 1C and lose the spade suit, that is a bidding disaster.

 

Avoid bidding disasters, open black 55's with 1S.

[the hog]

Agree with the above.

[pclayton]

With roughly equal suits, I'll open 1♣ and compete in spades if necessary. If I open 1♠, it is very likely I will bury the clubs. If I open 1♣, the spades might be buried, but not likely.

 

One of the few areas of bidding where I'm old-fashioned.

[the hog]

The major, (excuse the pun), problem with your opening 1C here is that you may lose the S suit, unless you are prepared to bid S at a high level Phil. With a moderate hand are you really prepared to bid 4S over 4H?

 

You need to consider the most likely game for your side. With a 5/5 the most likely game is 4M, (sure I know 5C or 3N are possibilities, but I said most likely). It is important therefore that you don't hide the S suit on weaker opening hands. Give yourself something like

AKJxx

x

Kx

AKxxx

 

and opening 1C has far more appeal as you can happily bid 4S.

Anyway this 1C/1S question has been posed since Noah was running around in diapers and one camp will never convince the other.

[inquiry]

I am in the old fashion boat with Phil, when the opponents are vulnerable. I am in the new fashion boat with Ron when the opponents are not vul and we are.

 

When neither ar vulnerable, I tend to be in the old fashion boat on many hands, but on this one, I will play to strike the first blow with 1♠ and then stay out of the auction as much as possible if there is competition unless partner shows spade support or a club suit.

 

Why does vulnabily enter the situation. If they are vul, there is very little chance that I will have to be making a decision on what to do next round of bidding at the four level.. and if I do have to make a decision, they are probably making what htey are bidding, and showing spades now to offer choice (and suggest perhaps 5-6) is ok by me.

 

If this seems a cop out, ask yourself, do you ever consider the vulnerablity before you make a bid? Of course you do. So, my answer is both.. I sometimes open 1C, I sometimes open 1S.

 

ben

[Free]

Always open 1♠, rebid 2♠ if you can't bid 2♣. It's commonly known that this doesn't always promisse a 6-card...

[inquiry]

Always open 1♠, rebid 2♠ if you can't bid 2♣. It's commonly known that this doesn't always promisse a 6-card...

Bury head firmly in sand....

 

You do know, don't you, that people have invented a whole host of conventions for showing two suiters because it gives you the best chance to compete effectively if you can find your fit? unusual 2Nt, michaels cue-bid, leaping michaels, superunusual NT, raptor 1NT, roman jump overcalls, DONT, cap, landy, aspro, etc, etc. Here with first bid, your plan is to open spade and rebid spade because it doesn't promise six? Boy that is a great way to describe 5-5 hands.. and maybe, or maybe not having six spades....

 

Ben

[han]

If you play 2/1, then there is a big chance that you can bid 2C next though. You are opening 1S planning to rebid 2C!

[jtfanclub]

Wow, I'm insane again. Cool.

 

I have 30 Zar points (including the bonus point for all high cards in two suits). That's a full trick better than minimum to open 1 spade. I can open 1 spade, and rebid 3 clubs. If you play that partner's 2/1 was forcing to his suit at the 3 level, then this may not show any extras. If it was only forcing to 2NT (which makes this a semi-reverse), you're still fine.

 

I've opened 1 club with six clubs and five spades before, but never 5-5. Never had it be a problem to open it a spade. Not likely this is going to be an uncontested auction anyways.

[Chamaco]

I am a 1 spade/2 spades rebidder, playing 2/1.

I play the Lawrence style, where suit rebid after a 2/1 does not promise ANYTHING in the suit bid, neither extra length nor extra strength.

 

Lawrence himself provides an example where he rebids his major on a 87432 suit (Mike Lawrence, "the Uncontesetd auction"), which makes evident that rebiding the major does not promise ANYTHING at all in the opening suit.

 

The point is, playing this style rebiding the major is NOT a naturl suit rebid, but a waiting bid, which could be as well described as an artificial bid or a sort of relay, ASKING responder to describe, rather than opener describing himself.

[joker_gib]

I am a 1 spade/2 spades rebidder, playing 2/1.

I play the Lawrence style, where suit rebid after a 2/1 does not promise ANYTHING in the suit bid, neither extra length nor extra strength.

 

Lawrence himself provides an example where he rebids his major on a 87432 suit (Mike Lawrence, "the Uncontesetd auction"), which makes evident that rebiding the major does not promise ANYTHING at all in the opening suit.

 

The point is, playing this style rebiding the major is NOT a naturl suit rebid, but a waiting bid, which could be as well described as an artificial bid or a sort of relay, ASKING responder to describe, rather than opener describing himself.

Same for me !

 

I always open 1♠. Opening 1♣ and rebid ♠ twice is 6♣5♠ !

[bearmum]

Sorry there has been a mistake in creating this poll. The two first alternates are compressed together. I cannot correct this :o and asked Ben to do so.

 

 

Hi all,

 

would like to hear your suggestions how to handle a weak 5/5 in blacks with SAYC or 2/1.

 

Dealer: South Vul: None Scoring: IMP

♠ AQxxx ♥ xx ♦ x ♣ AJxxx

.

 

A strong hand with 16+ HCP is sure worth a high reverse.

 

I would open 1♣ playing SAYC under most circumstances. Sometimes a 1 ♠ is more preemptive.

 

I would open 1♠ and rebid 2♠ playing 2/1, because partner had promised a second bid and I can show my clubs later.

 

If I had opened 1 ♠, my rebid over 2♦(♥) is always 2 ♠.

 

 

Btw. Kaplan Sheinwold would open 1♠ and rebid 2♠ even after responders 2♣, showing the minimum first and fit later.

 

I hope your discussion will be very instructive for our Billies.

 

I'm looking forward your replies.

 

Regards

 

Al

IN EITHER SAYC or 2/1 I would open 1♠ WHY in the world would u open 1♣ :D ---

 

After 1♠ in if P bids 1NT - I have an EASY 2♣ bid in either system

 

and over a 2/1 forcing 2♣ ♦ ♥ I can bid 3♣--- which does NOT show anything more than a minimum hand (or am I as USUAL missing something ?);)

[whereagles]

Didn't read it all, but here goes an opinion (not mine, lol). The french school recommends the following:

 

With a weak hand (11-15) open 1S, so that you can compete if opps butt-in.

 

With a strong hand (16+) open 1C, so that when you rebid spades pard will know you have a strong 55. Note that with a strong hand opps are less likely to butt-in, so you should concentrate in constructive bidding.

 

What do I think of this? I open 1S all the time ;)

[Free]

Always open 1♠, rebid 2♠ if you can't bid 2♣.  It's commonly known that this doesn't always promisse a 6-card...

Bury head firmly in sand....

 

You do know, don't you, that people have invented a whole host of conventions for showing two suiters because it gives you the best chance to compete effectively if you can find your fit? unusual 2Nt, michaels cue-bid, leaping michaels, superunusual NT, raptor 1NT, roman jump overcalls, DONT, cap, landy, aspro, etc, etc. Here with first bid, your plan is to open spade and rebid spade because it doesn't promise six? Boy that is a great way to describe 5-5 hands.. and maybe, or maybe not having six spades....

 

Ben

Well ok, congratulations, you've summed up a lot of conventions for OVERCALLERS.

 

Anyway, you open 1♣, LHO bids 1♥ or 2♥ or so, your partner a non-focring 2♦ or pass and opps go to 4♥. Nice to know if you have to sacrifice or not, and in what suit...

 

I know it's one of the first things I've ever learned to open the highest suit when you have 5-5, except for ♣ and ♠, and I also know it's the first thing we changed from the moment we got a little bit better. Opening 1♣ with such hand is old-school: good enough for most hands.

[Chamaco]

and over a 2/1 forcing 2♣ ♦ ♥ I can bid 3♣--- which does NOT show anything more than a minimum hand (or am I as USUAL missing something ?);)

 

3 clubs, even over a 2/1 GF DOES show extras.

 

These extras are not necessarily hcp, but usually it would show a GOOD second suit (2 of 3 top honors or 3 of top 5), and 5/5.5 losers at most.

 

With most "normal" hands, even 2 suiters, with a 2nd suit without honors cncentration, usually better avoid a 3-level bid.

This is almost regardless of high card point content, but mostly based on loser count and suit qualities.

[the hog]

Agree Mauro - it clearly shows extras

- currently drinking 92 Sori Tildin

[inquiry]

Well ok, congratulations, you've summed up a lot of conventions for OVERCALLERS.

 

Anyway, you open 1♣, LHO bids 1♥ or 2♥ or so, your partner a non-focring 2♦ or pass and opps go to 4♥. Nice to know if you have to sacrifice or not, and in what suit...

 

I know it's one of the first things I've ever learned to open the highest suit when you have 5-5, except for ♣ and ♠, and I also know it's the first thing we changed from the moment we got a little bit better. Opening 1♣ with such hand is old-school: good enough for most hands.

Well, yes, i see these were all overcalls. Do you think maybe that is why when i commentted on your decision I said, "here with the first bid" meaning you opened. (see Here with first bid, your plan is to open spade and rebid spade because it doesn't promise six? ). I could have listed opening bids that show two suits. These could have been Muliderberg, 2NT as a minor two suiter, Flannery, whatever you call the french invention of two of a major, minimum opening wiht major and minor (perfect for this hand). etc.

 

The point I was trying to make was that it is very important to describe ones distribution, ESPECIALLY with two suiters (whether you overcalll or open) as reasonably as possible. A plan to open this hand 1S and then rebid 2S is, well, you know.....I said it already, burying your hand in the sand. If you open this hand 1S, you are committed to rebidding 3C over 2D.

 

But then, as I have said all along, I have become a distribition first, points later kind of bidder.

 

Ben

[Gerben47]

If you open 1♣ partner will need a lot of convincing to play 4♠ in the alleged 4-3 fit. Since 3♣ shows extra's I don't rebid that with a minimum but I rebid 2♠. If 6♣ is right partner will probably bid 3♣ next or 2NT and then I bid 3♣.

 

I will consider opening 1♣ only on good 6-card ♣ with 5♠ and a strong hand.

[Fluffy]

Open 1♠, regardless of the strenght, EVEN having a 6th ♣, it doesn´t matter, just open your 5 card major.

Rebid of 2♠ doesn´t promise a 6th card after a 2♦ response on any system that cares about of rebid problems.

[inquiry]

If you open 1♣ partner will need a lot of convincing to play 4♠ in the alleged 4-3 fit. Since 3♣ shows extra's I don't rebid that with a minimum but I rebid 2♠. If 6♣ is right partner will probably bid 3♣ next or 2NT and then I bid 3♣.

 

I will consider opening 1♣ only on good 6-card ♣ with 5♠ and a strong hand.

Well, the only reason your partner will need a lot of convincing to play spades is becasue YOU don't open 5-5 in the blacks with clubs...

 

If, for instance, you routinely did... a simple

 

1C-1D

1S-whatever

2S <--- will paint the picture you need to paint.

 

BTW, take a look at matchpiont games where 4-3 major fit games often do very well indeed, as long as a ruff can be had in the hand with three trumps. So maybe it shouldn't be hard to convince your partner to play some 4-3 fits anyway.

[pclayton]

Didn't read it all, but here goes an opinion (not mine, lol). The french school recommends the following:

 

With a weak hand (11-15) open 1S, so that you can compete if opps butt-in.

 

With a strong hand (16+) open 1C, so that when you rebid spades pard will know you have a strong 55. Note that with a strong hand opps are less likely to butt-in, so you should concentrate in constructive bidding.

 

What do I think of this? I open 1S all the time :)

In the States, I believe the opposite is true. With a weak 5-5 (maybe this is a middlish, since I'd open with a Q less), open 1♣. With a stronger 5-5, open 1♠, since you can 'high reverse' later.

 

20 years ago, this was an automatic 1♣ opener. I'm betting that a lot of the 1♠ openers are under 40 and the 1♣ openers are over. :)

[inquiry]

If you are taking a poll, I am over 40... and I very much tend to open 1C