SEF vs SAYC

[07922]

Does anyone have a short comparison of the French system to SAYC?

[blackshoe]

Does anyone have a short comparison of the French system to SAYC?

Take a look at this discussion of the differences.

[kaltstart]

As described in the link SEF is a 5card major system (better minor openings), 1NT 15-17 and Benjamin 2♣/2♦. Besides, there are some differences in further bidding:

 

* Roudi: After 1m -(p)-1M -(p) 2♣ is now some kind of checkback stayman, see e.g. My link

 

* invitational only 2nt after 1M: 1M -(p)-2NT shows 3card support, 1M -(p)-3M 4card support

 

* 2/1 bids force to 2nt. This affects opener´s rebids as well, e.g.

• 
   
  
• 1M-(p)-2m -(p)-2NT (usually 15-17, bal., forcing)
  
• 1M-(p)-2m -(p)-3m (no minimum, fit, forcing)
  
• 1M-(p)-2m -(p)- 2M (some kind of default bid, no other bid, can still be 5 cards, balanced)
  
• 1M-(p)-2m -(p)- 2M -(p)-2NT (nf) -(p)- 3m (sign-off in partner´s minor)
  

 

* no garbage stayman, 2NT-rebid showing both majors; also see My link

 

* mixed cues after shown fit

 

* RKCB 3014, but some don´t show the trump queen with 5♠

 

 

Defensive Bidding: Landy over opponents´ 1NT opener

[gordontd]

(better minor openings)

Not in my experience: with 3-3 always open 1C, with 4-4 always open 1D.

[Fluffy]

Not in my experience: with 3-3 always open 1C, with 4-4 always open 1D.

 

yes, but we still call it better minor :)

 

 

the main difference is how to treat 5M332 hands with 15-17 range. They open 1M by default (very seldom 1NT) and rebid 2NT over 2x (Game forcing) but 2m over 1NT/1♠.

 

This means that as said above 1M-2x-2M can be 5 cards with 12-14 balanced or such.

[gordontd]

the main difference is how to treat 5M332 hands with 15-17 range. They open 1M by default (very seldom 1NT) and rebid 2NT over 2x (Game forcing) but 2m over 1NT/1♠.

I thought they would pass 1NT, and rebid 2M over 1S.

 

The other notable difference is never raising a 1M response with three-card support. The end effect of all this is that a 2M rebid is frequently done on a five-card suit.

[gwnn]

I think in SEF roudy means

 

1m-1M

1N-2C

 

and also perhaps

1C-1M

2C-2D

 

No links on this, just my limited experience from playing in France for a week. Everyone seemed to be playing these two relays in the club.

[Furlan]

I think in SEF roudy means

 

1m-1M

1N-2C

 

and also perhaps

1C-1M

2C-2D

 

No links on this, just my limited experience from playing in France for a week. Everyone seemed to be playing these two relays in the club.

Roudi is just the former (sort of checkback stayman). The latter is what they call "third suit forcing".

[gwnn]

Oh yes, it all comes back to me now. Quatrieme forcing, troisieme forcing, druri, roudi? c'est bon.

[Fluffy]

The end effect of all this is that a 2M rebid is frequently done totally forbidden on a five-card suit (over 1♠ or 1NT response)

 

Not sure what kind of SEF have you encountered, but is not similar to the one I have.

 

 

About roudi, roudi was a very useful tool when the 16-18 range was popular, the sequence was as follows:

 

1x-1M

1NT-2♣

 

now

 

2♦ = 12-13, 2 cards in partner's major

2♥= 12-13, 3 cards in partner's major

2♠= 14-15, 3 cards in partner's major

2NT= 14-15, 2 cards in partner's major.

 

Also worth note, 1x-1M-1NT-2♦ is a sing off in 2♦ no matter what you have.

1x-1M-1NT-2NT forces 3♣ normally to play or to invite with long diamonds (4M-6♦ normally)

 

Now with 12-14 range the thing is not very good, those 13 counts are very hard to asses into maximum or minimum without knowing what is partner about. XYZ works much better. Maybe if you play it 11-14 it might be worth a try.

[barmar]

Most of the answers in this thread have been tutorials on the SEF system. I need info on going the other way.

 

There's a new player in our club in America who learned to play in France. Since she doesn't have a regular partner yet, she'll be partnering with other singles who just know SA and 2/1 (mostly relative novices playing SA). I was trying a few weeks ago to find resources on what she'll need to learn to adjust, but couldn't.

[gordontd]

Not sure what kind of SEF have you encountered, but is not similar to the one I have..

If you change the sentence you quote, it's easy to disagree with the conclusion.

[mgoetze]

Most of the answers in this thread have been tutorials on the SEF system. I need info on going the other way.

 

There's a new player in our club in America who learned to play in France. Since she doesn't have a regular partner yet, she'll be partnering with other singles who just know SA and 2/1 (mostly relative novices playing SA). I was trying a few weeks ago to find resources on what she'll need to learn to adjust, but couldn't.

In case either of you knows some German, the article SAYC und Forum D Plus - Gemeinsamkeiten und Unterschiede, Bridge-Magazin Oktober 2010, pp. 31-33 might help. The main problem with that article is that it assumes that SAYC as defined by the ACBL is what people actually play, but oh well...

[P_Marlowe]

Most of the answers in this thread have been tutorials on the SEF system. I need info on going the other way.

 

There's a new player in our club in America who learned to play in France. Since she doesn't have a regular partner yet, she'll be partnering with other singles who just know SA and 2/1 (mostly relative novices playing SA). I was trying a few weeks ago to find resources on what she'll need to learn to adjust, but couldn't.

Hi,

 

The big question is, what do you mean by SA.

 

In SAYC a 2 over 1 response promises another bid, similar to SEF, but I am not sure,

if this is SA, my impression was, that a 2 over 1 response may just be round forcing.

 

If SA player do promise another bid after a 2 over 1 response, than I would not worry

too much, she will be doing ok.

 

The big differences mentioned are, that SEF play ... instead of NMF, that openers 2m

rebid may be based on a 5332 hand, if the 5 card suit is a major.

 

But those things are minor things.

 

In France they are using standard carding, as far as I know.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[antonylee]

<deleted>

[antonylee]

My own experience of switching from SEF to 2/1 (I didn't really go through the SAYC phase, I tend to think that SAYC is more like 2/1 except when suit rebid... ok not really either but well):

* 1m-1M-2M never a 3crd raise, rebid a bad 4crd minor is not frowned upon. Also, always open 1C, not 1D, with 5C4D and less than reverse strength.

* NMF (pleeease play CS) vs Roudi: 1m-1M-1N-2C!, now 2D=3crd, min, 2H=4crd, min, 2S=4crd, max, 2N=3crd, min (a rarer style is to play 2C!=relay to 2D! followed by natural invite... one half of 2way NMF :-))

* Benjamin 2C/2D (2C forces 2D, now opener's rebid is strong but NF, 2D opening is GF with responses: 2H=negative, 2S=major ace, 3m=ace, 2N=8+ or 2Ks, 3H/S/N=2A, crash style... widely agreed to be a weak point of SEF)

* No Puppet Stayman (there was a recent article in the FFB magazine strongly advising new partnerships against it)

* 1N with 5cM is still frowned upon, but things start to change apparently (otherwise, rebid a 3crd minor)

* 2M default rebid in 2/1 auctions

* 1D-2C-2N is played as 12-14 OR 18-19 at least in some partnerships (though 2D=any min also exists)

* 4SF is autoforcing (i.e. responder must rebid) and GF only if responder's rebid is at the 3-level, passable otherwise.

* 3rd suit forcing (1C-1M-2C-2D! and (for some partnerships) 1D-1S-2D-2H!=artificial force, 9+ F1 only).

* Standard attitude and count (known as "odd/even" in French, beware!) for everyone (I've seen some play UD attitude but I don't remember ever seeing UD count), some play odd/even (known as "Italian" in French...) and lavinthal, K is power lead against NT, otherwise top of sequence. Length leads against suits: lowest from odd, 2nd non-honor from even (i.e. 2nd from even w/o honor, 3rd from even with 1 honor). Length leads against NT: 4th best, top of nothing, 2nd from 4/5 small (or 4th from 5)

* Rubensohl is, I believe, much more frequently played than Lebensohl, but neither is officially "standard" I think.

Edited May 8, 2012 by antonylee

[gnasher]

* Benjamin 2C/2D (2C forces 2D, now opener's rebid is strong but NF, 2D opening is GF with responses: 2H=negative, 2S=major ace, 3m=ace, 2N=8+ or 2Ks, 3H/S/N=2A, crash style... widely agreed to be a weak point of SEF)

I don't usually get involved in discussions of nomenclature, but since this thread is about switching systems it's probably worth noting that this is not quite what "Benjamin" means in England. Anyone moving between SEF and Benjamin Acol should enquire more closely rather than assuming that they mean the same thing.

[gordontd]

Also, always open 1C, not 1D, with 4C5D.

Is that really what you meant to say, or is it a typo?

[antonylee]

Is that really what you meant to say, or is it a typo?

Typo corrected :)

[gordontd]

Not sure what kind of SEF have you encountered, but is not similar to the one I have.

Maybe it's a London variant, but when I checked with the French people who run the French Bridge club in London they confirmed that with a minimum 3532 opener they would rebid 2H after a 1S response, and pass a 1NT response. They were emphatic that 1H-1S-2H does not guarantee six hearts.

 

This, combined with a NT rebid showing extras, and a raise of a 1S response requiring four-card support, means that a 2H rebid is indeed made on a five-card suit more frequently in SEF than in Std Am.

[Fluffy]

I see, yours the London SEF, mine is the Madrid SEF, and probably neither is the standard one if there is any :)

 

I play a tournament in the south of France every year and I don't remember 1♥-1♠-1NT showing a strong hand happening ever. It is totally true that 2♠ shows 4 card support though. Direct raise shows 4 card support 100%.

[Furlan]

I see, yours the London SEF, mine is the Madrid SEF, and probably neither is the standard one if there is any :)

There is. It's a book, published by the French Bridge Federation; full title is "Le Système d'Enseignement Français".

[Zelandakh]

My understanding is that 1♥ - 1♠; 1NT does not show extra strength in SEF (or Forum D). I suspect that Gordon might be getting confused with the auction 1M - 2m; 2NT which does show extras. After the 2/1 response a rebid of the major is a Notgebot made with any minimum hand without a better choice, including all minimimum 5M332 hands.

[antonylee]

The official booklet (2006 version of the SEF) that I have says,

 

1. Après un changement de couleur au palier de 1...

1.3 Redemande à Sans-Atout...

1SA: 12-14H

1.4 Répétition de la couleur d'ouverture...

Répétition simple: 13-17HL. Ne garantit 6 cartes que si la réponse est la couleur collée à l'ouverture.

 

or, for those who don't speak French

 

1. After a 1/1...

1.3 Notrump rebid...

1NT: 12-14H

1.4 Rebidding the opened suit...

Rebid without a jump: 13-17HL. Promises 6 cards only if responder's suit was the step immediately above opener's.

[Fluffy]

and maybe this is the point, antonylee has made me recall that in the SEF I know you are suposed to rebid 2♥ with 4♠-5♥ after 1NT.