Old system = bad system?

[Rebound]

Folks, I don't consider myself to be that good a bridge player, but I think I am able to understand pretty much any convention or bidding system and I like to think I can spot the good ones when I see them and alter my preferred system accordingly. Of course, sometimes, a treatment or convention is incompatable with the system all together and must be rejected regardless of its quality, but then, I try to ask whether perhaps an entirely different system might be better.

 

My current system is rather old-fashioned but I think it still works very well. However, from what I have read on this board, most of my methods in precision are looked upon with disdain.

 

So, here's what we play, as briefly as possible while still giving a fairly thorough description.

 

1♣ 16+ (i'm thinking of going over to the balanced 11-12/16+ option.)

1♦ 11-15, length 2+

5cM, 11-15

1NT 13-15

2♣ 11-15 the usual, 5+ clubs, maybe 4cM

2♦ mini-roman

2M - weak, 2NT - minors 5-11.

 

Over 1♣ - 1NT 8-10 or 15+, 2nt 11-13, 3NT 14-(poor)15, 1♦ 0-8, 1♥/♠/2♣/♦ 9+HCP 5-card (or longer) suit. 2♥/2♠/3♣/3♦ 9+ 3-suiter short in bid suit. Over interferance, pass is 0-5, any bid shows 5-8 and double shows 9+.

 

In general, jump-shifts are mini-splinters (although I am interested in fit-showing jumps.)

 

We play doubles for penalties as often as possible (pretty much anything higher than the 1-level), Jordan over interferance. Here's one that will get some laughs, over opponents' pre-empts, dbl is penalty and NT is 3-suit takeout. 4C - always keycard ask except when it is a simple club rebid. Stayman always promises a 4cM, also play Smolen, lebeshol.

 

Please let me know what you think and feel free to be brutal - I want suggestions for improvements or potential overhauls. Also, I'm wondering what you all think of the CC Wei version where 1NT guarantees no 4CM and all responses are shape/strength showing but perhaps that should be a new thread (brilliant, Rebound! lol). It obviously doesn't fit in with the system Free has described in another thread, but I would still be curious to know what you think of it in the appropriate context, please, Free?

 

p.s. all diamonds still appear as orange rectangles. Anybody know what's up with that?

[pclayton]

Pick up a copy of Rigal's or Berkowitz' book on Precision.

 

As far as your current methods go, even though some of the ideas are 30+ years old, its still playable, but I'd work to update a lot of it. In order of preference, I'd change the following:

 

1. Make your 1N opener 14-16. It gives you a 2 point range for your 1♦ openers with balanced hands (12-13). It gives you some 'incremental' safety (here's a little secret too - many pairs treat 13-15 as a weak NT, so they have the penalty double, but 14-16 gets the 'strong NT' treatment, so there isn't a penalty double; go figure). A 14-16 NT also allows you to have a 17-19 NT rebid after 1C-1D-1N, thus getting rid of the 19-21 2N opener (or rebid in your case).

 

2. Make your 1D response 0-7, not 0-8. Yes I know the old bromide is 26 points makes a game, but I can't EVER remember getting overboard with a 16 opposite an 8 (especially since the balanced hands are 17+).

 

3. Keep the jump shifts as mini-splinters. Fit Showing Jumps work best when there is competition.

 

If you like these ideas, you can implement them with minimal discussion. There are a lot of other good ideas out there, you just have to experiment a little and see what you like.

 

Hope this helps.

[whereagles]

Your system is just fine. There hasn't been any major breakthroughs in precision, just some minor tweaks, like those pclayton pointed out. Most of the useful novelties and gadgetry have to do with competitive bidding, not systems themselves.

[Rebound]

Well, there are certainly alternatives, though, aren't there. E.g. relays, other meanings for 1♦, 2♣, 2♦.

 

Further, I'm interested to know which novelties and gadgets you are referring to against competition, and in what ways they may be preferred over our current treatments. If needed I can provide details. Not that I'm displeased with your assessment ;-)

[jtfanclub]

1. Make your 1N opener 14-16. It gives you a 2 point range for your 1♦ openers with balanced hands (12-13).

 

I haven't had any trouble with using 1NT as 12-15 and a 0 point range for my 1♦ openers with balanced hands*. Kinda nice to know, first, second and fourth seat, that 1♦ is unbalanced. This means, for example, that the auction 1♦-1♥-1NT promises a singleton heart. Much easier to evaluate your hand that way.

 

I've also had opponents get in a lot more trouble treating 1NT as weak than as strong. But maybe that's where I play.

 

I find Precision is still superior to SA or 2/1 across standard competition. A lot of that is probably familiarity issues- people aren't used to thinking in terms of Precision openings, and their defenses suffer as a result.

 

*We do open 1NT with a very poor 16, one what we don't have much hope to make 3NT across a balanced 8 count.

[the hog]

Rebound, it does not matter that much what you play as long as you and your partner are in synch. If I were playing Preicion, I'd certainly take Phil's suggestion of a 14-16 NT on board. I'd also play 2D as a multi and 2H as the 3 suited hand with short Ds. I would also open 2c only with a 6 card C suit, possibly with 4M, not 5C.

 

As to responses over 1C. I don't like 1N as 8-10 as this wrongsides the NT contract too often. Also have you considered transfer responses?

1H = S, 1S = H, 1N = a minor, 2C = 13+ bal, 2D = 8-10 bal.

[HeartA]

If a pick-up partner says (s)he plays precision, the first thing I ask is the minimum number of cards 1D opening guarantees. If the answer is 2, I refuse to play. My 1D garantees 4+ cards.

[the hog]

The above is a rather foolish comment as you are looking at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system. (Note that I am not saying that insisting on 4+D for a 1D opening is wrong or bad, just that it impacts greatly on your other opening bids. You cannot look at one bid in a vacuum).

 

The number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening. If you insist on 4D for you 1D opening, then you cannot play a 14-16 NT AND open 11-13 point hands. The 4D requirement only works IF you play a 12-15 NT and don't open flat 11 counts.

eg playing 14-16 NT AND 4+D, you have no bid for

Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx

[HeartA]

The above is a rather foolish comment as you are looking at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system. (Note that I am not saying that insisting on 4+D for a 1D opening is wrong or bad, just that it impacts greatly on your other opening bids. You cannot look at one bid in a vacuum).

 

The number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening. If you insist on 4D for you 1D opening, then you cannot play a 14-16 NT AND open 11-13 point hands. The 4D requirement only works IF you play a 12-15 NT and don't open flat 11 counts.

eg playing 14-16 NT AND 4+D, you have no bid for

Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx

 

Why is it foolish? I value features more than HCP.

 

My 1NT is 13-15. With Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx, I open 1NT. What is the problem?

For 11-12 HCP without 4-card ♦, I pass. At 3rd/4th position, and 12 HCP, I bid 1NT or pass depending on the quality of cards.

[luke warm]

very good points, ron... our 1d is canape (unless clubs is 2nd suit, if <17 hcp), guaranteed 4+... course nt is 12-15

[the hog]

You did not correctly read or perhaps did not understand my post. I said you cannot look at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system; therefore to say to a pick up pd "I am not playing if D are not 4" is a very foolish comment. You need to discuss the range of 1N and what to do with flat hands in the 11-12 range which do not have a 4 card D suit as well. A bidding system is a unified entity, not a rag bag of random bids and ideas.

 

If you open my example hand with 1N then you are not playing a 13-15 NT as you have just stated, but rather a 12-15 NT. An opponent who miscounts your hand may well feel aggrieved at your mis explanation.

 

Further what about Axx Ax xxx Kxxxx, Do you open this 1N as well? Most Precision exponents would open this hand - so your focussing on one aspect of the system at the expense of the rest of the structure is foolish, particularly but not solely with a pick up partner.

[HeartA]

As you said, the number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening, which is very true. How many Ds for 1N opening reveals a lot of things about the whole system. So "how many Ds 1D opening implies is NOT an isolation issue.

 

I refuse to play a system that 1D opening says almost nothing about D.

[jtfanclub]

You did not correctly read or perhaps did not understand my post. I said you cannot look at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system; therefore to say to a pick up pd  "I am not playing if D are not 4" is a very foolish comment.

 

That's not what he said. What he said was, he asked how many diamonds the other person's Precison was and if the answer was two, he would not play it. He did not ask the other person to change their system.

 

Virtually any two players can start with Precision with 1 diamond promising 4+ and quickly answer a couple of questions and start playing- all of the other bids naturally stem from the trifecta of 1 club-1 diamond- 1NT, and most Precision systems have the same requirements for the other two bids. However, nebulous diamond and one diamond 4+ are not compatable- you can't simply declare "OK, we'll play your system, but with diamonds 4+". It doesn't work.

 

Further what about Axx Ax xxx Kxxxx, Do you open this 1N as well?

 

As a rule, Precision systems with 1♦ promising 4+ have agreed to pass all 11 counts (or fewer) that have no singleton, five card major, or six card minor, often with a one point deduction on requirements for third hand. So it's foolish to ask that sort of question. If you know how many diamonds 1♦ promises, you already know the answer.

[the hog]

"That's not what he said. What he said was, he asked how many diamonds the other person's Precison was and if the answer was two, he would not play it. "

 

Another one who does not speak English.

[jtfanclub]

Another one who does not speak English.

It was in perfect English. You simply chose a strawman to fight instead of reading what he (and I) wrote.

[the hog]

Note:

"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play."

 

Not:

"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play (this or it).

 

English 101!

[Rebound]

The above is a rather foolish comment as you are looking at one bid in isolation from the rest of the system. (Note that I am not saying that insisting on 4+D for a 1D opening is wrong or bad, just that it impacts greatly on your other opening bids. You cannot look at one bid in a vacuum).

 

The number of D in the 1D opening is directly proportional to the range of your 1N opening. If you insist on 4D for you 1D opening, then you cannot play a 14-16 NT AND open 11-13 point hands. The 4D requirement only works IF you play a 12-15 NT and don't open flat 11 counts.

eg playing 14-16 NT AND 4+D, you have no bid for

Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx

 

Why is it foolish? I value features more than HCP.

 

My 1NT is 13-15. With Axx Kx Kx Qxxxx, I open 1NT. What is the problem?

For 11-12 HCP without 4-card ♦, I pass. At 3rd/4th position, and 12 HCP, I bid 1NT or pass depending on the quality of cards.

I think this treatment rather defeats the purpose of opening 11-12 point hands early and often to get in the auction ahead of the opponents, one of the main design features of the precision system.

[HeartA]

I think this treatment rather defeats the purpose of opening 11-12 point hands early and often to get in the auction ahead of the opponents, one of the main design features of the precision system.

#1, inverted minor becomes useless, and D fit becomes very difficult to find.

#2, 1D opening does not use much space, opps can easily enter the auction. It may let opp to enter the auction earlier. If you don't open, your lho may not strong enough to open either.

 

The advantage of opening 1D with 2Ds only is that it also make it difficult for opps to find D fit.

[HeartA]

Note:

"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play."

 

Not:

"If the answer is 2, I refuse to play (this or it).

 

English 101!

Is this forum about bridge or language? "play" can be a transitive verb or intransitive verb. "I refuse to play" is a perfect English sentence.

 

By the way, when I say "I refuse to play", I can mean I refuse to play it (the system), or refuse to play with him/her.

 

Take it wasy, Ron.

[Chamaco]

Over 1♣ - 1NT 8-10 or 15+, 2nt 11-13, 3NT 14-(poor)15

Using the 3NT response to 1♣ opener to show a 14-15 is self preempting.

You may have a fit which would com out only if you look for it at a 4 lvel.

As a result you may easily miss a slam , or, at MP, play in 3NT while you have a better score in a major (or, alternatively, you may look for a fit, not find it, and have to play at a higher level the contract).

 

I'd prefer many of the alterntive schemes available:

 

- 1NT as unlimited 8+

- 1NT = 8-13 and 2NT = 14+

- 1NT = 8-10/14+ and 2NT = 11-13

- using the 1C:2M responses to discriminate better the balanced hands rather than using them for a "weak 2" type of hand

- any other solution I am unaware of

[bearmum]

(quote edited)

 

My current system is rather old-fashioned but I think it still works very well. However, from what I have read on this board, most of my methods in precision are looked upon with disdain.

 

So, here's what we play, as briefly as possible while still giving a fairly thorough description.

 

1♣ 16+    (i'm thinking of going over to the balanced 11-12/16+ option.)

1♦ 11-15, length 2+

5cM, 11-15

1NT 13-15

2♣ 11-15 the usual, 5+ clubs, maybe 4cM

2♦ mini-roman

2M - weak, 2NT - minors 5-11.

 

Over 1♣ - 1NT 8-10 or 15+, 2nt 11-13, 3NT 14-(poor)15, 1♦ 0-8, 1♥/♠/2♣/♦ 9+HCP 5-card (or longer) suit. 2♥/2♠/3♣/3♦ 9+ 3-suiter short in bid suit. Over interferance, pass is 0-5, any bid shows 5-8 and double shows 9+.

 

In general, jump-shifts are mini-splinters (although I am interested in fit-showing jumps.)

 

We play doubles for penalties as often as possible (pretty much anything higher than the 1-level), Jordan over interferance. Here's one that will get some laughs, over opponents' pre-empts, dbl is penalty and NT is 3-suit takeout. 4C - always keycard ask except when it is a simple club rebid. Stayman always promises a 4cM, also play Smolen, lebeshol.

 

HI Rebound

Your "Precision" sounds a lot like the one I play (with some minor differences)

We play same 1♣ ♦ ♥ ♠ as you

1nt 13-15 (can't have TWO 4 card majors tho) 2♣ as you

2♦ =11-15 and 0 or 1 ♦ NO 4 card major (and 2NT resopnse asks for distribution AND range)

 

2♥ ♠ + 8-10 (2NT response asks for singleton)

2NT = 21-22

 

Over 1 and 2NT we play Jacoby transfers for majors 3♠ relays to 2NT -and 2NT relays to 3♣ and after that one can show 5/5 distributions at the 3 level

 

Play splinters STRONG JS RKCB and various asking bids after positive response to 1♣

 

We did try the 1NT denies ANY 4 card major but didn't like it as much as the one we play now ( which is I THINK the garozzo/belladonna system written about 1975)

 

It probably wouldn't go too well at "A" level ;) but we have done reasonably well with it at regional comps and at NACB at "C" grade level when we played in the USA. More to the point we enjoy playing that system , and to be perfectly honest I am trying to make my card PLAY and counting of the cards better rather than endeavouring to learn a lot of new conventions :D

[whereagles]

Further, I'm interested to know which novelties and gadgets you are referring to against competition, and in what ways they may be preferred over our current treatments. If needed I can provide details. Not that I'm displeased with your assessment ;-)

Although there are many, many competitive gadgets available, the most important ones are by far those described in Robson & Segal's book "Partnership Bidding". There's a .pdf file of it somewhere on the net, which you can probably find easily via google.

 

Most of the book is written with unlimited 5-card majors openings in mind, but the ideas can be easily adapted to precision, and can even be used effecitively without any tweaking at all. The one thing you might frown upon is Robson/Segal recommend take-out doubles as often as possible ;)

[GijsH]

I play Viking Precision according to Groetheim's book, and I can recommend it, provided:

 

- you have a regular partner playing it twice a week.

- you have the patience to learn the many relay sequences. This requires time and effort, but I found it is possible to learn them in about a week.

 

My view on systems is: it does not matter much what you play. But methods which help in accurate slam bidding give an edge in serious competition play. Viking is both aggresive as required in modern bridge and very elaborate in the slam zone. I also noticed it is the only relay system on Olympic / Bermuda Bowl level.

[helene_t]

This is a fine system. The only thing (but you have probably heard this before) is that I would advise you to get rid of the penalty doubles.

 

As for the 1♦ opening, I would get rid of the overlap with the 1NT opening. For example, you could play

1♦: 4+ diamonds unbalanced (maybe 3+ unballanced when vulnerable to avoid opening 2♣ on a bad suit too often).

1NT: 13-15, possibly 5422-shape especially with clubs

 

Or whatever notrump range you like, a lot can be said for one notrump range being better than others but I don't think it matters much in terms gross efficiancy. 13-15 does have the advantage that it is possible to keep the 1♦ clean. (This does not suggest that I would refuse to play a nebolous diamond. In fact, I like to play with anybody as long as they have good manners. :) )

 

I would stretch the range of the 1♦ opening to 17 HCPs since opening 1♣ and rebiding 2♦ consumes a lot of spades (and sometimes wrongsides diamond contracts).

[bhtf]

:lol: precision as liberty territory

not great contribution :P but mine as comfortable (only) use sys.

 

-- 1C (15+ hcp) responses :

1H, 1S, 1NT(6-7), 2C, 2D : naturals about 5-9hcp

2H, 2S : 444 short in major bid, 5-8.

3S : AKQxxx in H, nothing out.

3H : same with other longer. If relay : 3NT=C, 4C=D, other = S.

1D : relay 0-5 or 9+ hcp.

 

1C-1D-jumps : FG.

one key of the sys is 1C-1D-1NT 15-20hcp, easy to handle then.

 

-- others openings :

1D /2+ balanced 11-14, OR /4+ 10-15

1H 10-15, /5+ or tricolored with 44 majors (4441 or 4450)

1S 10-15, /5+.

1NT : as the users want ! ! ! ! ! [*]

2C : /6+ no major /4, 10-14.

2D MULTI : weaks majors twos OR balanced 23-24.

2M : M/4 and C/5+, 11-14 (inverteds roman twos)

2NT balanced 21-22

 

[*] all balanceds hands

11-14 : 1D

15-20 : 1C-1D-1NT

[the Quinze-Vingt hospital (by Saint Louis) is in Paris lol]

21-22 : 2NT

23-24 : MULTI 2D

25-27 or 31+ : 1C-1D-2NT

28-30 : 1C-1D-3NT

 

[***] 1NT is not a bid in the (basic) sys !!!! lol

 

thx for all and for all yours (very) interestings discussions