Strong Club Systems

[32519]

Playing a strong club system, I have seen three different schools of thought regarding the continuation bidding after the opponents have overcalled the 1♣ opening bid:

 

School 1:

0-4 HCP = Pass

5-7 HCP = Double, artificial, game invitational if a suit fit can be found

8+ HCP = Ignore the overcall, bid as you normally would, use the overcall to your benefit (distribution and HCP location with the opponents) and continue with a game forcing auction

 

School 2:

0-4 HCP = Pass

5-7 HCP = Bid a 5-card suit if you have one, otherwise bid NT not promising anything specific about the suit overcall

8+ HCP = Double, penalty orientated especially when the opponents are red, your side is known to hold a minimum of 24 HCP

 

School 3:

0-4 HCP = Pass

5-7 HCP = Bid a 5-card suit if you have one, otherwise bid NT not promising anything specific about the suit overcall

8+ HCP = Double, artificial game force, use the overcall to your benefit (distribution and HCP location with the opponents) and continue with a game forcing auction

 

School 4: (added by Free, see post below)

0-4 HCP = Double

5-7 HCP = Pass, artificial, game invitational if a suit fit can be found (Over 1-level interference, the Pass and Double of School 1 have been reversed in his relay system)

8+ HCP = Ignore the overcall, bid as you normally would, use the overcall to your benefit (distribution and HCP location with the opponents) and continue with a game forcing auction

 

School 5: (added, this is an extension of School 3)

0-4 HCP = Pass

5-7 HCP = Bid a 5-card suit if you have one, otherwise bid NT not promising anything specific about the suit overcall

8+ HCP = (a) Double, artificial game force when the opponents are white, use the overcall to your benefit (distribution and HCP location with the opponents) and continue with a game forcing auction

…………..(b) Double, penalty orientated when the opponents are red, your side is known to hold a minimum of 24 HCP (the penalty orientated double can start applying from level-2 and higher, on level-1 it remains an artificial game force)

 

 

Below is an extract from Awm’s Recursive Diamond System

 

The most common response to 1♦ is 1♥, which shows any hand with game-forcing strength (9+ points usually) and also any very weak hand (0-4 points).

All other bids show the intermediate range! The full set of responses looks like:

1♥ any 0-4 points or any GF

1♠ 5-8 hcp balanced or semi-balanced

1NT 5-8 points, three-suited hand with no 5-card major

2♣ 6+♣, 5-8 points, not balanced

2♦ 6+♦, 5-8 points, not balanced

2♥ 5+♥, 5-8 points, not balanced

2♠ 5+♠, 5-8 points, not exactly 3♥, not balanced

2NT both minors, 5-8 points

3♣ 5+♠, 4+♣, 3♥, 0-1♦, 5-8 points

3♦ 5+♠, 4+♦, 3♥, 0-1♣, 5-8 points

3♥ 6+♠, 3♥, 5-8 points

 

Awm’s structure above was designed for no interference from the opponents. When the opponents overcall 2♠ or below, then a double is an artificial game force (8+ HCP) which says nothing about the distribution of responders hand. After opposition interference, a free bid in a new suit shows 5-8 HCP and at least 5-cards in the suit bid. Awm’s notes would typically fall into the 3rd School of Thought.

 

Personally I am undecided whether the 2nd or 3rd school of thought is better. Another option to include into your system agreements is: a) Double is penalty orientated showing 8+ HCP when the opponents are red, b) Double is an artificial game force when the opponents are white (as in awm’s system).

 

1. What are your agreements regarding the continuation bidding over 1C after opposition interference (school 1, school 2, school 3 or something else)?

2. What are the plusses and minuses of each school?

 

Thanking you all in advance for sharing your thoughts on these possible different partnership agreements.

 

[This post has been edited]

[awm]

It seems generally silly to play penalty doubles of low level interference. You will rarely win boards by penalizing them in one of a suit for example.

 

I think the real question is between 1 and 3. Currently I play transfers, which generally give me the best of both at a cost of additional complexity (not so much the transfer itself as needing agreements about forcing/non-forcing in auctions where we are not in a GF and both hands are unlimited).

[Free]

There's another school: swap the meanings of Dbl and pass of school 1. Dbl shows 0-4HCP, pass shows a semipositive.

 

When I played relays, this came up quite often and never caused any problems. We played relays on after 1-level interference. Using pass as semipositive meant we still had our relays available. for semipositives as well as GF hands.

[PrecisionL]

Aster several years, we play natural advances through 2♥ overcalls. Over 2♠ we play 1-under transfers starting with 2NT to show ♣. Over 3-level overcalls: X is the transfer bid (for the next suit above the overcall).

 

Other Interfence below 2♠:

 

Pass = 0-4 hcp (without an Ace).

X = 5+ hcp and no 5-cd suit (opener can pass for penalty).

Cue = 6+ hcp and short in the opponent's suit.

Bid = 6+ hcp and natural, 1 round force.

[32519]

There's another school: swap the meanings of Dbl and pass of school 1. Dbl shows 0-4HCP, pass shows a semipositive.

 

When I played relays, this came up quite often and never caused any problems. We played relays on after 1-level interference. Using pass as semipositive meant we still had our relays available. for semipositives as well as GF hands.

 

My understanding here is that this only applies for 1-level interference.

1. What do you do over higher level interference?

2. When and how does the double become penalty?

[nigel_k]

If they overcall 1♠ and you have five hearts, it just seems wrong to woodenly double or pass or whatever because of how many points you have, then hear the next player jump to 3♠. I would play invitational or better transfers and double for takeout. When the auction gets competitive, partner needs to know about your long suit much more than whether you have 6 HCP or 8 HCP.

[32519]

If they overcall 1♠ and you have five hearts, it just seems wrong to woodenly double or pass or whatever because of how many points you have, then hear the next player jump to 3♠. I would play invitational or better transfers and double for takeout. When the auction gets competitive, partner needs to know about your long suit much more than whether you have 6 HCP or 8 HCP.

 

After running some deals through BBO’s deal generator, a penalty double is invariably a poor option when the opponents have a distributional fit. So this hypothesis of yours certainly appears to be valid. Sure you win on some deals, but not always.

 

I ran some deals through BBO’s deal generator using the following constraints:

Dealer = South

South = 16+ HCP any distribution

West = 5+ HCP, 5X♠ (any distribution for the rest of the hand)

North = No constraints (either in HCP or distribution)

East = 5-card ♠ suit, fit with West, no further constraints (either HCP or distribution)

 

This was an extremely awkward hand dealt.

[hv=pc=n&s=s98hak83dk8cakt53&w=sakjt53hqj74dqc92&n=sht952daj952cj876&e=sq7642h6dt7643cq4]399|300[/hv]

 

E/W can easily make 4♠ on a cross-ruff. N/S can make 6♣ (one of the ♥ losers in the South hand can go on the ♦J). Apart from the fact that it doesn’t fall “neatly” into any of the different schools of thought, whatever North chooses to do makes a huge difference to East’s bid. North has 6 HCP, add in the ♠ void and it comes to 11 HCP (or 9, depending on whether you count 5 or 3 for the void).

 

Does North:

1. Double promising 5-7 HCP?

2. Double promising 8+ HCP?

3. Bid the 5-card ♦ suit promising 5-7 HCP?

4. Bid the 5-card ♦ suit promising 8+ HCP?

 

If North doubles promising 5-7 HCP, East will lift the pre-empt to 3♠. If North bids 3♦ promising 5-7 HCP and a 5-card ♦ suit, East may feel frisky and bid 4♠ seeing the cross-ruff potential between the two hands. On this hand it would appear to be irrelevant what North chooses to do. The ♣ fit is buried after the ♠ pre-empt.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions how to find it?

[Free]

My understanding here is that this only applies for 1-level interference.

1. What do you do over higher level interference?

2. When and how does the double become penalty?

1. After higher level interference we played Dbl as takeout (semipos at 2-level, GF at 3-level or higher)

2. Usually the 3rd Dbl is penalty. The first is takeout. The second Dbl, in many cases, shows values.

[straube]

We play system on over dbl, 1D, and 1H interference. Our bids are unaffected by whatever they do because our 1D and 1H response prelude relay auctions anyway.

 

To cope with 1S interference, we use dbl as negative and pass as semipositive. Bidding over 1S starts a GF. This preserves relays for both positive and semipositives.

 

We use awm's method after 2X interference. Basically dbl is takeout, 2X is a transfer (keying on majors) and 2S is always GF in whichever suit the bid shows. When we have the opponents suit, we pass. When the opponents preempt 2H over 1C and we have something like Axx xxxx KQxx Jx we bid 3S as a request for help (bal, no stopper, not takeout shape)

 

We use natural and GF bids at the 3-level and 4m level and double is takeout.

 

We use Pass/Double Inversion at the 4H up level. Basically we assume responder has something and we're committed to playing game or doubling the opponents off. We haven't tested this. We hope that getting to the right strain will compensate for having absolutely no idea whether responder has any values. So playing PDI, pass is forcing and invites a double (which responder may pass but if he bids out he's showing two suits) whereas responder's bid of a suit shows a single-suited hand and a double shows a balanced or takeout hand.

[Zelandakh]

It is impossible to have a sensible discussion of interference schemes without also specifying the level of the interference. Against 2-level interference I thought one of the more popular schemes these days was to use transfers.

[PrecisionL]

After running some deals through BBO’s deal generator, a penalty double is invariably a poor option when the opponents have a distributional fit. So this hypothesis of yours certainly appears to be valid. Sure you win on some deals, but not always.

 

E/W can easily make 4♠ on a cross-ruff. N/S can make 6♣ (one of the ♥ losers in the South hand can go on the ♦J). Apart from the fact that it doesn’t fall “neatly” into any of the different schools of thought, whatever North chooses to do makes a huge difference to East’s bid. North has 6 HCP, add in the ♠ void and it comes to 11 HCP (or 9, depending on whether you count 5 or 3 for the void).

 

Does North:

1. Double promising 5-7 HCP?

2. Double promising 8+ HCP?

3. Bid the 5-card ♦ suit promising 5-7 HCP?

4. Bid the 5-card ♦ suit promising 8+ HCP?

 

If North doubles promising 5-7 HCP, East will lift the pre-empt to 3♠. If North bids 3♦ promising 5-7 HCP and a 5-card ♦ suit, East may feel frisky and bid 4♠ seeing the cross-ruff potential between the two hands. On this hand it would appear to be irrelevant what North chooses to do. The ♣ fit is buried after the ♠ pre-empt.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions how to find it?

 

1♣ (A+F) 1♠ ?

 

What does N bid with ♠: - ♥: T953 ♦: AJ952 ♣: J876

 

5. North bids 2♠ showing a 3-suited hand, short in spades.

 

N-S get to 5♣, 6 is probably too hard and too lucky.

[32519]

1♣ (A+F) 1♠ ?

 

What does N bid with ♠: - ♥: T953 ♦: AJ952 ♣: J876

 

5. North bids 2♠ showing a 3-suited hand, short in spades.

 

N-S get to 5♣, 6 is probably too hard and too lucky.

 

Thanks for this. The answer was actually so simple that I feel like a complete dufus for not recognising it myself. It always comes to to logic and system agreements.

 

Thanks again.

[Wackojack]

Somewhat reluctantly, I have been playing a strong club system with one particular partner. I stressed to him that he must come up with effective ways of countering interference. After a few evolutionary tries, this is what he has come up with and I now feel much more comfortable playing a strong club than I did. Indeed I no longer think that the strong club is a weakness of the system. This is the method. It looks like Method 3 with bells and whistles.

 

Countering intervention over the strong 1♣(17+)

 

1♣-(1♦♥♠ natural)-?

 

0-2 HCP Pass unless 6 or more in major or 7 or more in minor.

 

3-4 HCP Respond at the 1 level with 4-card major and 4 HCP (3 HCP if 5 cards),or minimally at the 2 level with a good 6 card suit and 3-4 HCP if possible. Otherwise pass.

 

5-7 HCP Respond at the 1 level with a 4 card suit or minimally at the 2 level with a 5 card suit.

With a balanced hand & partial stop (Qx/Jxx) in the opponents bid suit respond 1NT.

Otherwise pass. (Also pass with length in opponents’ suit.)

 

8+HCP (i) Double with at least 2 in the opponents’ overcalled suit and no long suit

(GF) (ii) With a shortage in opponent’s suit, cue bid with 1444, 1345, 0445

(iii) Jump or make a 3 level response in a new suit with a 6 carder

(iv) Pass with length in opponents suit (trap pass)

(v) With 5-5 in two other suits:

- jump to 2NT with the 2 higher ranking suits

- jump cue with the two lower ranking suits

- jump to 3NT with the two other 2 suits

 

1♣-(x)-?

 

Treat as if the double was an overcall, except that the redouble response shows 8+HCP and substitutes for the double above. i.e. shows 2-4 in the opponent’s suit or suits.

 

1♣-(2♣♦♥♠)-?

 

0-2 HCP Pass unless 7 card suit

 

3-4 HCP Pass unless possible to bid at the 2 level with a 6 card suit or minimally at the 3 level with a 7 card suit.

 

5-7 HCP Respond 2NT if balanced with a stop in the opponents’ suit

OR bid at the 2-level with a 5 card suit or 3-level with a 6 card suit OTHERWISE pass

 

8+HCP (i) to (iv) as for 8+HCP over a 1 level overcall. But the only bid to show a 5-5 distribution is a jump cue bid in the overcalled suit. This shows shortage in the overcalled suit and 5-5 in the 2 lower ranking other suits. With other 5-5 hands, bid the longest or highest ranking suit first, and the other suit next round if there is room.

 

1♣-(3♣♦♥♠)-?

 

0-5 HCP generally pass

 

6-7 HCP generally bid a good suit (GF, as is at 3-level) or double if good 7 (also GF)

 

8+HCP (GF) Double OR bid a good suit OR cue to show shortage in the opponents’ suit OR 3NT to play.

 

 

If the opponent’s overcall is artificial implying a different suit, then a bid of the implied suit is a cue and a bid of the overcalled suit is natural.

If the overcall shows a 2-suiter one of which is the overcalled suit and the other a known suit then a bid of either of these suits is a cue. If length is held in either of these suits then pass.