"let's play mathe"

[jillybean]

3rd session with a new partner you have agreed to play "mathe" over big♣

 

(1♣) X (P) 2[cl)

 

Any guesses as to what partner has got?

[JLOGIC]

clubs?

[Zelandakh]

You are suggesting that an undiscussed bid in a suit not shown by the opponents might be natural Justin? How very old-fashioned of you!

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk3h73d8532cajt93&n=sqjt62hakt52d9cq2&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1c*d*p2c]266|200[/hv]

 

1♣ 16+

X majors

 

Does anyone play 1♦, 2♣ here as anything other than natural?

[ArtK78]

Not that I am aware of.

 

By the way, the 2♣ bid is silly. Partner showed majors. Bid one (here, the choice is clearly the Kx). Seems a lot like the "Who's stubborn" thread. Everyone wants to bid his own suit and not support partner.

[mgoetze]

By the way, the 2♣ bid is silly. Partner showed majors.

Yes, and how many cards in the majors did he show? Do we really have to risk playing a 4-2 fit?

[aguahombre]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk3h73d8532cajt93&n=sqjt62hakt52d9cq2&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1c*d*p2c]266|200[/hv]

 

1♣ 16+

X majors

 

Does anyone play 1♦, 2♣ here as anything other than natural?

Maybe someone does. We haven't found the need for methods to explore for a game on power after partner makes the two-suited bid over a strong club. On this one, we might need 1NT with extreme distribution in the minors to scramble out of the majors and a bid of either minor to play in that suit instead of a major.

 

Maybe, if the need to invite game in a major rather than just make a LAW bid ever comes up, 2NT could be discussed. But, in order for partner to know whether to accept an invite, you would have to agree on some range for the double to begin with.

 

The given South hand can just pick one of North's majors routinely without overthinking. Partner usually has two suits at least as long as your clubs. Why, try for a 5-0 fit at a higher level?

[han]

After an overcall or double you should use 1NT to show a fit and game interest.

[gwnn]

I think 1D should be an asking bid (bid your better major).

[ArtK78]

Yes, and how many cards in the majors did he show? Do we really have to risk playing a 4-2 fit?

It is only the 1 level. By bidding clubs (and the suit is only AJT9x) in the face of an announced major suit hand you are committing the hand to the two level without a known fit in the face of a strong hand at your left. The 2♣ bid, in and of itself, may doom the partnership to a large minus.

[pigpenz]

It is only the 1 level. By bidding clubs (and the suit is only AJT9x) in the face of an announced major suit hand you are committing the hand to the two level without a known fit in the face of a strong hand at your left. The 2♣ bid, in and of itself, may doom the partnership to a large minus.

Gee what happened to the days of CRASH where the idea was to bid as high as you could before they could find out what their real suit and strength are?

[jillybean]

Maybe someone does. We haven't found the need for methods to explore for a game on power after partner makes the two-suited bid over a strong club. On this one, we might need 1NT with extreme distribution in the minors to scramble out of the majors and a bid of either minor to play in that suit instead of a major.

I'm not interested in looking for game facing a strong♣ opening but rather to let partner pick her best major.

 

 

The given South hand can just pick one of North's majors routinely without overthinking. Partner usually has two suits at least as long as your clubs. Why, try for a 5-0 fit at a higher level?

I agree.

[mgoetze]

It is only the 1 level. By bidding clubs (and the suit is only AJT9x) in the face of an announced major suit hand you are committing the hand to the two level without a known fit in the face of a strong hand at your left. The 2♣ bid, in and of itself, may doom the partnership to a large minus.

I think AJT9x opposite a random singleton rates to play at least a trick better than Kx opposite a random 4-card suit, but maybe that's just me.

[Zelandakh]

Gee what happened to the days of CRASH where the idea was to bid as high as you could before they could find out what their real suit and strength are?

Well North could bid 7NT over 1♣ of course, am not sure it would be a big success though. You bid as high as seems sensible with every method, it is only that here we have no fit so why should we be trying to bid at a high level?

[ArtK78]

Gee what happened to the days of CRASH where the idea was to bid as high as you could before they could find out what their real suit and strength are?

Playing CRASH (which I still play) one bids to the highest level of (presumed) safety given the possibilities announced by partner's bid. So, assuming that partner is not insane, one can jump with a reasonable amount of safety and partner will pass or correct as appropriate.

[32519]

Yes, and how many cards in the majors did he show? Do we really have to risk playing a 4-2 fit?

 

This hand is an excellent example of Justin’s suggestion in this thread My link

 

Quote:

I like X=majors and 1NT=more majors, like 5-5.

 

Adjust your agreements in line with Justin's suggestion and you won't be in a 4-2 fit!

[ArtK78]

I think AJT9x opposite a random singleton rates to play at least a trick better than Kx opposite a random 4-card suit, but maybe that's just me.

You don't know that your AJT9x will play as well as 1♠ even if it turns out that it is a 4-2 fit (which would be quite unusual).

 

More important, partner is unlikely to punish you if you bid 1♠ but he may bid again if you bid 2♣ (especially if 2♣ is doubled).

 

Partner showed both majors. I suggest that you choose one if it is reasonable to do so.

[aguahombre]

Somewhat related is this:

 

Whatever your 2-suit methods are over a strong artificial club, it is partner (advancer) who is the one who will be making jump bids inconvenient to the opening side. This won't happen as frequently as it should if there is worry about the two suits being "short" as four cards.

[jdeegan]

:P Lew was a baaaaaad.. dude from the left coast. He would have drooled when he passed. Let those turkeys get outttaa.. this one. MFYL

[aguahombre]

:P Lew was a baaaaaad.. dude from the left coast. He would have drooled when he passed. Let those turkeys get outttaa.. this one. MFYL

True. Mathe would not have bid Mathe directly with that much strength. Mere mortals would not be able to resist, though; and, on a different layout of the South cards, the opponents would have a bit more room to find a successful strain and level after North's silence.

[Vampyr]

You don't know that your AJT9x will play as well as 1♠ even if it turns out that it is a 4-2 fit (which would be quite unusual).

 

 

Would that be so unusual? I think that you are not interfering enough over their strong club if you wait for 5-5 or even 5-4 in your suits.

[aguahombre]

Would that be so unusual? I think that you are not interfering enough over their strong club if you wait for 5-5 or even 5-4 in your suits.

At risk of not-so-profoundly stating the obvious, let's just take the Mathe double for an example.

 

It shows the majors. It takes up no bidding space, and actually adds two calls to responder's bag. Now, if in addition to those facts, the double might be made on as little as 4-4 in the majors, then the frequency where advancer can make a bid which will really take up some space is reduced...and the dangers are increased. The situation is not much improved if the double could be 5-4 or 4-5.

[Vampyr]

At risk of not-so-profoundly stating the obvious, let's just take the Mathe double for an example.

 

It shows the majors. It takes up no bidding space, and actually adds two calls to responder's bag. Now, if in addition to those facts, the double might be made on as little as 4-4 in the majors, then the frequency where advancer can make a bid which will really take up some space is reduced...and the dangers are increased. The situation is not much improved if the double could be 5-4 or 4-5.

 

Well, I have been convinced by Justin's series of excellent posts on the subject to completely change my approach in this situation.

[jdeegan]

True. Mathe would not have bid Mathe directly with that much strength. Mere mortals would not be able to resist, though; and, on a different layout of the South cards, the opponents would have a bit more room to find a successful strain and level after North's silence.

:P May I quote you. "Mathe would not have bid Mathe" Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... This is what irony all about.

[aguahombre]

:P May I quote you. "Mathe would not have bid Mathe" Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....... This is what irony all about.

Nothing particularly ironic about the person whom the method is named after having agreements on when he will use the tool and when he won't. If I read your first post correctly, you were saying Mathe ---being clever as he was ---would not have used it with that hand.

 

If, that isn't what you were saying, then my apology for agreeing with you.