What does 4C mean

[HeartA]

 

K8532,KQT5,Q,K82,JT7,83,AJ9642,64,96,962,K53,QT973,AQ4,AJ74,T87,AJ5

 

 

I as South, holding ♠AQ4,♥AJ74,♦T87,♣AJ5, opened 1NT. my pd responded 2C (Stayman), I bid 2H. My partner then bid 4C. What does 4C mean?

[sceptic]

I think it is a splinter for hearts

[EricK]

It means he is torturing you by making an undiscussed conventionalial bid.

 

It is probably either a splinter or some sort of Gerber.

 

In either case, the simplest thing to do is to bid 6♥ as there should be some play opposite a splinter, and it must make if partner is asking for Aces.

 

Eric

[HeartA]

It means he is torturing you by making an undiscussed conventionalial bid.

very true. B)

 

It is probably either a splinter or some sort of Gerber.

Anyway, I bid 4S (cue-bid), also suggesting I was willing to play over 4H. Guess not a good bid.

 

In either case, the simplest thing to do is to bid 6♥ as there should be some play opposite a splinter, and it must make if partner is asking for Aces.

 

But I was afraid of D controls.

[the hog]

I think its fairly standard to play this as a splinter agreeing H.

[Free]

Clear splinter for ♥, but it wouldn't be the first guy who thinks this is Gerber...

[whereagles]

Gerber is an awful convention, lol. In fact, the first thing you should say to ANY 1st time partner is "I don't play Gerber" :rolleyes:

[inquiry]

Gerber is a fine convention, ignore Whereagales advice. Having said that, this is not Gerber. This is splinter in support of hearts.

 

BTW, if you do play GERGER, make sure you know when it is used. I would recommend, if you are going to use it, it use it on two auctions only. 1NT-4C and 2NT-4C. The "problem" with GERBER is that people confuse when 4C is gerber. Use that rule above, no confusion. If you like can extend it to 1C-1any-2NT-4C. I wouldn't but you could.

 

Ben

[Chamaco]

Gerber is a fine convention, ignore Whereagales advice. Having said that, this is not Gerber. This is splinter in support of hearts.

 

BTW, if you do play GERGER, make sure you know when it is used. I would recommend, if you are going to use it, it use it on two auctions only. 1NT-4C and 2NT-4C. The "problem" with GERBER is that people confuse when 4C is gerber. Use that rule above, no confusion. If you like can extend it to 1C-1any-2NT-4C. I wouldn't but you could.

 

Ben

Assume that:

 

1) responder has a hand without a clear fit which needs to know only Aces (after haveing verified with stayman there is no major fit).

 

2) responder needs a quantitative invitation to 6NT

 

1N:2C

2H:4C

 

If 4C is not gerber and 4NT is quantitative (this cannot be given up), how do you ask for Aces ? (please do not respond that hands which need only Aces do not exist :rolleyes: )

[whereagles]

Gerber is not fine: it's a useless source of confusion that consumes a useful bid and serves no purpose whatsoever :) In fact, I think it should be erased from every textbook! :rolleyes:

[EricK]

Gerber is a fine convention, ignore Whereagales advice. Having said that, this is not Gerber. This is splinter in support of hearts.

 

BTW, if you do play GERGER, make sure you know when it is used. I would recommend, if you are going to use it, it use it on two auctions only. 1NT-4C and 2NT-4C. The "problem" with GERBER is that people confuse when 4C is gerber. Use that rule above, no confusion. If you like can extend it to 1C-1any-2NT-4C. I wouldn't but you could.

 

Ben

I agree that this should be a splinter. And playing with an expert you can be fairly sure that it is. But playing with a pick-up partner of, say, intermediate strength, how confident are you that partner is on the same wavelength?!

 

Eric

[Chamaco]

Gerber is not fine: it's a useless source of confusion that consumes a useful bid and serves no purpose whatsoever :) In fact, I think it should be erased from every textbook! :rolleyes:

I am not a big fan of Gerber :-)

 

I only advocate the need of 2 separate bids, one for quantitative invitation to 6NT, and another to ask Aces with no fit. :)

 

If not using Gerber, I accept any suggestions except the adage "there is rarely the need to ask aces in NT auctions" :D

[inquiry]

Gerber is a fine convention, ignore Whereagales advice. Having said that, this is not Gerber. This is splinter in support of hearts.

 

BTW, if you do play GERGER, make sure you know when it is used. I would recommend, if you are going to use it, it use it on two auctions only. 1NT-4C and 2NT-4C. The "problem" with GERBER is that people confuse when 4C is gerber. Use that rule above, no confusion. If you like can extend it to 1C-1any-2NT-4C. I wouldn't but you could.

 

Ben

I agree that this should be a splinter. And playing with an expert you can be fairly sure that it is. But playing with a pick-up partner of, say, intermediate strength, how confident are you that partner is on the same wavelength?!

 

Eric

This is true of any 4C bid made by such a partner, and they may take any of your 4C bids as gerber. This is why a simple rule.. 1NT-4C or 2NT-4C is gerber, nothing else. That takes no time to define, and is so stark, even beginners can get it quickly. --- Even quicker is no GERBER, and it is better not to play GERBER than risk misunderstandings about 4C's. But better to play it right than not play it, better to not play it than have misuderstandings.

[whereagles]

Actually... 4C can only be a splinter if you have other means of asking for aces and to make a quantitative invitation. If you play

 

1NT 2C

2H 4C/4NT = splinter/quantitative

 

then you have no way to ask for heart keycards without messing up the bidding. For this reason, unless you do have some way to ask for aces, 4C should not be a splinter.

[inquiry]

Actually... 4C can only be a splinter if you have other means of asking for aces and to make a quantitative invitation. If you play

 

1NT 2C

2H 4C/4NT = splinter/quantitative

 

then you have no way to ask for heart keycards without messing up the bidding. For this reason, unless you do have some way to ask for aces, 4C should not be a splinter.

Well, modern bidders have easy way to to this without messing up anything....

 

1N-2C

2H-?

 

4C = splinter

4N = quantatative

2S = major fit, forcing... follow this up with 4NT to ask for keycards...If opener had bid 2S, then 3H serves the same function.

 

Ben

[helene_t]

Maybe I'm lacking fantasy, but I can't immagine a hand that would ask aces after Stayman.

 

If you have a hearts fit, you should establish the trump suit at the three-level so that you have room for cuebidding. Some use 3♦ for that purpose, with my regular pd I use 2♠.

[Chamaco]

Maybe I'm lacking fantasy, but I can't immagine a hand that would ask aces after Stayman.

 

If you have a hearts fit, you should establish the trump suit at the three-level so that you have room for cuebidding. Some use 2♦ for that purpose, with my pd and I use 2♠.

You may want to ask aces even if you have not found a fit.

 

I think there is an actual need for a a "pure" ace ask after stayman, rare enough, yes, but still there should be.

This obviously should be discriminated from a quantitative invite to 6NT.

 

The usual argument against Gerber is "You rarely need the ace-ask", but I do not think it holds.

I do not like Gerber either, I just state that I want to be able to ask simply Aces, no matter which way, even after checking for a major with Stayman and finding a misfit.

[pclayton]

Out here, 4♣ is 100% Gerber. Whether its key card, 04123 or Roman is a matter of agreement.

 

Goldman is a nice agreement to have - you can show all the hand types you want. It applies in stayman auctions where opener shows a major and it applies in transfer auctions. To wit:

 

1N - 2♣

2 major:

 

3 of OTHER major - unknown singleton. Since responder is unlimited, opener bids next step and responder shows the stiff.

 

4♣ - Key card Gerber

4♦ - Balanced slam try (ostensibly a hand good enough for a quantitiative 4N, but with 4 trump. Decide if a pull to 4N is natural or key card by opener).

[junyi_zhu]

K8532,KQT5,Q,K82,JT7,83,AJ9642,64,96,962,K53,QT973,AQ4,AJ74,T87,AJ5

 

 

I as South, holding ♠AQ4,♥AJ74,♦T87,♣AJ5, opened 1NT. my pd responded 2C (Stayman), I bid 2H.  My partner then bid 4C.  What does 4C mean?

Without much discussion, it has to be RKC because you just have no other ways to RKC in this sequence without discussion. 4NT would be invitational here.

Also, a better treatment is to use 1N 2C 2h 3S as splinter in an unspecific suit and 3NT

as a relay to ask where it is for standard system. That saves two bids. Actually most

shortness showing conventions should adopt this principle because this way saves a lot of space and partner doesn't have to relay sometimes if his hand is no good to ask so opps would be in dark in that case.

[PriorKnowledge]

4C is RKC for hearts

Other bids are:

3S (3 of other major) = anonymous splinter, 3N asks which suit

4D = balanced slam try in hearts

4H = signoff

4N = quantitative NT raise

[HeartA]

Without much discussion, it has to be RKC because you just have no other ways to RKC in this sequence without discussion. 4NT would be invitational here.

Also, a better treatment is to use 1N 2C 2h 3S as splinter in an unspecific suit and 3NT

as a relay to ask where it is for standard system. That saves two bids. Actually most

shortness showing conventions should adopt this principle because this way saves a lot of space and partner doesn't have to relay sometimes if his hand is no good to ask so opps would be in dark in that case.

I don't agree that 4NT after Stayman is quantitive, especially with the sequence I gave. 2C implies (at least one) major, not very flat hand, otherwise should 4NT directly. After Stayman and my 2H, 4NT as quantitive doesn't make sense, since I haven't denied 4-card spades yet. I prefer "only direct 4C is Gerber".

 

The gadgets "3S anonymous splinter" needs to discuss, not good for pick-up partners.

 

Anyway, the full hand was in my first post with hidden text. I like Eric's solution: bid 6H directly regardless what 4C is about.

[cf_John0]

When we played Gerber, the group of us had a convention that anytime any jumping or direct 4C over opening NT is Gerber.

For this hand,Considering of Splinter will lead the bidding to a rough way.

 

Does anyone agree with me?

[inquiry]

When we played Gerber, the group of us had a convention that anytime any jumping or direct 4C over opening NT is Gerber.

For this hand,Considering of Splinter will lead the bidding to a rough way.

 

Does anyone agree with me?

I agree with you, ane welcome

 

Ben

[EarlPurple]

[hv=w=saq4haj74d1087caj5&e=skj82hkq63dkqj4c7]266|100|[/hv]

 

A hand where Stayman followed by Gerber (or some other ace-ask) may be useful. You also happen to have a singleton club (if you didn't you should have the king). So if 4♣ is a splinter then when partner responds you could now bid 4NT which is surely ace-asking.

 

Don't know what I'd bid over 2♦ by partner, so maybe we'd need more agreements.

 

6♥ makes as long as we don't lose a quick diamond ruff. On a club lead the best play seems to be to win and ruff a club then test trumps. If they are 3-2 it is simple enough. (Draw trumps, throw last club on spade then knock out ♦A. If trumps are 4-1 we must lead a diamond ourselves, and with the suit 4-2 the opps do best to duck this as we can't now lead another one. But I can ruff the last club, draw the trumps and 4 spade tricks take the total to 12.

 

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[hv=w=saq4haj74d1087caj5&e=skj82hkq63dkqj4c7]266|100|[/hv]

 

Here is a hand where 4♣ as a splinter might be useful because you are hoping to hear partner bid 4♦ showing a top honour, after which you can ask for aces. But as here partner will not give you any diamond cue, you pass the 4♥ response avoiding the doomed slam.

 

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[hv=w=saq4haj74d1087caj5&e=skj82hkq63dkqj4c7]266|100|[/hv]

 

Here you want to know if partner has a diamond control so perhaps you can bid 4♣ not as a splinter but as a cue-bid agreeing hearts. If partner does cue-bid in diamonds you can then bid 4NT to ask for aces, but here when partner fails to show it to you and bids 4♥ you pass.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

So drawing a conclusion, perhaps 4♣ is not a splinter but simply a cue-bid agreeing hearts? In the first example, you simply use it on the way to ace-asking. On the latter two examples you wait first to see if partner can show you a diamond control.

 

You will note that on the one hand where Gerber worked, you could also manage without it. Therefore unless you can show me a hand where Gerber and only Gerber works (i.e. you want to ask for aces but may stop in the 4-level) after bidding Stayman, then I am not convinced.

[HeartA]

When we played Gerber, the group of us had a convention that anytime any jumping or direct 4C over opening NT is Gerber.

    For this hand,Considering of Splinter will lead the bidding to a rough way.

 

Does anyone agree with me?

I agree with you, ane welcome

 

Ben

Ben,

While most of the time you are right, this time I have to disagree. As I said in the previous post, after Stayman or something else to show interest in suit contract, 4NT as quantitive doesn't make sense anymore. I insist that only direct 4C over 1NT/2NT is Gerber. 4C as Splinter or another suit need discussion between partners, but I think the former is much more accepted and thus as default. After some bidding and then 4C is default as splinter, 4NT is RKC (or plain blackwood)