A Competitive Decision

[inquiry]

Ok we will wait for Ron's reply, but you 4NT bidders, don't whine to me when you gof for 1100 or 1400. And if partner has 1 or 2 Spades, even with yarbough, he has to be bid over my 4Sx, so if he has some 2-4-4-3 hand with two spades, he will bid on. Exception: with no points and side singleton, he can gamble a pass with no points.... give him a side singleton (not in spades) and some points, he must bid (again, without at least three spades).

 

For the record..this maybe the first time JT and I have agreed... so now I am worried about my choice... :-) (just kidding JT, you have it right).

 

Ben

[junyi_zhu]

Ok we will wait for Ron's reply, but you 4NT bidders, don't whine to me when you gof for 1100 or 1400. And if partner has 1 or 2 Spades, even with yarbough, he has to be bid over my 4Sx, so if he has some 2-4-4-3 hand with two spades, he will bid on. Exception: with no points and side singleton, he can gamble a pass with no points.... give him a side singleton (not in spades) and some points, he must bid (again, without at least three spades).

 

For the record..this maybe the first time JT and I have agreed... so now I am worried about my choice... :-) (just kidding JT, you have it right).

 

Ben

This is not playable if you hold a strong balanced hand:

SAx HAKxx DAQx Cxxxx

you claimed that your partner has to bid with 2-3-4-4 shape, ok, let me give your partner a decent 7 HCP hand without HCP wastage: Sxx HQxx DJxxx CKJxx, you think you can make 5C or want to play 5C?

[jtfanclub]

This is not playable if you hold a strong balanced hand:

SAx HAKxx DAQx Cxxxx

you claimed that your partner has to bid with 2-3-4-4 shape, ok, let me give your partner a decent 7 HCP hand without HCP wastage: Sxx HQxx DJxxx CKJxx, you think you can make 5C or want to play 5C?

Of course not...luckily, clubs is the lowest ranking suit, so you can bid 5 diamonds.

Otherwise, you'd have to bid 5 hearts.

[the hog]

This has morphed into an extremely interesting thread. Our full auction was

 

(1S) P (4S) 4N

(P) 5C (5S) X

 

So I guess I was lucky on the board. The whole hand

 

[hv=n=saqjxxhqxxdxxck9x&w=sxhakjxxdakxxxcxx&e=skxhxxxxdq432cqjx&s=sxxxxxhxdxxcatxxx]399|300|[/hv]

 

I was wondering about the respective merits of X vs 4NT

[pclayton]

This has morphed into an extremely interesting thread. Our full auction was

 

(1S) P (4S) 4N

(P) 5C (5S) X

 

So I guess I was lucky on the board. The whole hand

 

[hv=n=saqjxxhqxxdxxck9x&w=sxhakjxxdakxxxcxx&e=skxhxxxxdq432cqjx&s=sxxxxxhxdxxcatxxx]399|300|[/hv]

 

I was wondering about the respective merits of X vs 4NT

Well, the 5♠ call is unconscionable.

 

There is a psychological aspect to 4N that the doublers (me included) ignore. At this vulnerability, frequently the opponents will still sac - as these opponents did. Very difficult for either side to gauge with any amount of confidence.

 

A bit unlucky on the total tricks. EW make 9 and NS make only 8 on what should be 19 TT.

 

Reading these posts, I'm wondering if my approach to the direct 4N call is correct. I've played it as a takeout double over 4♠ as long as I can remember. But from a total tricks perspective, as long as we are committing to a high level, an unknown 5+-5+ seems to make more sense. And lump the 1444's into the quasi-penalty double. Any thoughts?

[inquiry]

5♠ is a stinker no matter what... I think double or 4NT will likely end up in the same spot, because I expect partner to bid with this hand (4NT over double, not to play, but pick a spot). So we lose 1S, 2C, 1H for 500 away in a phanthom... maybe a clever partner with wasted king of spades and no quick tricks will ignore his fit and pass, at this vul I really doubt it however.

 

To Phil, don't lump 4NT into quasi penalty double, use double for takeout.

[pclayton]

No - Ben; I'm thinking about 4N being a 2 suiter and double as penalty / 3 suited.

[jtfanclub]

Just because I can...

 

A bit unlucky on the total tricks. EW make 9 and NS make only 8 on what should be 19 TT.

 

As I pointed out, there are nineteen total trumps, but the bidding has already told you that it's likely to be fewer than 19 total tricks. It's not luck, it's evaluation.

 

The Law is a nice rule, but you can't apply it mindlessly.

[Chamaco]

Reading these posts, I'm wondering if my approach to the direct 4N call is correct. I've played it as a takeout double over 4♠ as long as I can remember. But from a total tricks perspective, as long as we are committing to a high level, an unknown 5+-5+ seems to make more sense. And lump the 1444's into the quasi-penalty double. Any thoughts?

amongst others, this is the approach suggested by Lawrence in "The complete book on t/o double".

 

Basically 4N is 2 suiter and X is cooperative, assuming that broke pards will leave the double quite often rather than bid at the 5 level.

[EricK]

No - Ben; I'm thinking about 4N being a 2 suiter and double as penalty / 3 suited.

I believe that "standard" is 4NT is two suited and X is take-out. In other words, X looks like a standard double of 1♠ only much stronger.

 

However, becuase the take out doubler is likely to have on average only 4 cards in each suit, and because the take out doubler is likely to have enough high card strength to defeat 4♠ a lot of the time, the "take out" double is often left in for penalties.

 

Note that 4NT as two suited also applies to the partner of the take out doubler. So (1♠) P (4♠) X (P) 4NT would ideally show some 5-5 hand. This avoids playing in a 5-3 fit when there is a 5-4 (or even 5-5) available.

 

Eric

[EarlPurple]

1♠ pass 4♠ Dbl

pass 4NT

 

should show 2 places to play, but I don't know about 5-5.

 

Of course, there is another option of what 4NT could be in the auction 1♠ pass 4♠ 4NT - it could be to play. You might have:

 

♠AQ ♥ x ♦ Qxx ♣ AKQJxxx

 

and you hope to get a spade lead and hope partner covers the red suits (especially hearts) and can provide you another trick (2 more if a red suit is led).

 

Or even you might have:

 

♠ Kx ♥ Ax ♦ Ax ♣ AKQJxxx

 

10 cold tricks on a spade lead even if partner has a yarborough. On a red-suit lead, you hope partner has one red king for you (or QJ in the red suit they lead).

 

Now Dbl would be used to cover 2-suiters.

[whereagles]

Interesting to see 4NT gets the shaft here. Perhaps I should be more careful in the future with defensive hands.

[inquiry]

Interesting to see 4NT gets the shaft here. Perhaps I should be more careful in the future with defensive hands.

It is a matter or experience... chalk this one up...

 

With a mixed 5-5 hand (offensive and defensive) and a singleton in their suit, you have to consider double or 4NT.

 

If you held the same hand but with clubs and hearts, you should bid 4NT. The reason being if parnter bids 5♦ over a double, you can't back up to 5♣ when clubs is the right strain. Same is true when you are 5-5 in the minors, bid 4NT because if partner bids 5♥ over the double, you can't back up. But with the master off-suits, you can use a double if the hand has both offensive and defensive characteristics.

 

NOTE, if your double isn't "takeout", you have to use 4NT with all of these hands.

[jtfanclub]

NOTE, if your double isn't "takeout", you have to use 4NT with all of these hands.

Quintuple ARRRGH.

 

Some things seem so obvious to me that I can't believe people are missing it. Then I check some sample hands, and the right answer, and they agree with me. The only conclusion I can get is that people are pontificating rather than considering the problem

 

Look. This is a five loser hand. It was 4.5 until you heard that 4♠ was distributional, then it went back up to 5, because a nine card fit without the queen is no longer odds-on to have no losers.

 

You also have three defensive tricks, assuming one of your kings is getting ruffed.

 

You need ONE defensive trick from your partner to set four spades.

 

You need THREE winners from your partner to make 5 of something.

 

Note that, given the bidding, your partner is a lot more likely to have defensive tricks than winners. In the actual hand, your partner has two defensive tricks but one winner. That means both 4♠ and 5♥ are going down 2.

 

At this vulnerability, it makes no sense to bid takeout for a sacrifice. You need to make. Try making a few random hands, and see if you're going to make. You may be surprised.

 

Doesn't matter if the X is 'takeout' or penalty. You need to X.

 

Oh yeah, I almost forgot:

With a mixed 5-5 hand (offensive and defensive) and a singleton in their suit, you have to consider double or 4NT.

 

They have a 9-11 card fit. And while a doubleton in their suit is even with a singleton (worse if they have a 9 card fit, better if they have a 10+ card fit), all of the other possibilities (0, 3, or 4) are far stronger on both offense and defense.

 

You have no slow developing tricks, nothing that's going to go away on the opponent's long suit, nothing that's finessable that maybe you can trap North into leading. 5 losers, three quick defensive tricks- that should scream defense to you. Not mixed.

 

Seriously, try a few hands. I think you'll find this hand is much worse offensively than you think.

[whereagles]

Interesting to see 4NT gets the shaft here. Perhaps I should be more careful in the future with defensive hands.

It is a matter or experience... chalk this one up...

Perhaps I was influenced by this hand: it was a live national tournament and I was directing. NV vs V a player held something like (can't remember exactly the cards)

 

--

xxx

AKJTx

AKxxx

 

Player LHO pard RHO

1D.....1S....pass*..4S

5C....pass..pass....5S

(all pass)

 

*hesitation.

 

The contract drifted 1 off. I was summoned by the spade side who argued the hesitation might have induced the 5C bid. I didn't find the 5C bid to be "automatic", so I asked a few players around what they would do (without telling them of the hesitation, of course!). Much to my surprise, most people bid 5C without any contemplation. I ruled table score stands.

 

Interestingly enough, 5C is actually makes (pard had hesitated between double and pass on xx KTxx Qxxx Qxx). Since personally I was undecided between pass and 5C, this "experience" induced me into a more attacking game. Now I see the other side of the story, and I can think of both things when it happens at my table ;)