Red Ken

[wank]

An unusual problem I gave my partner recently:-

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq2hak642dk42ck&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hp1sp4cp4dp]133|200[/hv]

 

I suspect most would open 2♣ but it doesn't matter - take a card away if makes you feel better. Anyway, at this point partner took control and bid keycard which I suspect would be the standard plan.

 

I'm convinced it's right to cue 4♥ first. Of course you want to check for aces and enquire about 3rd round heart control for 7, but the odds of partner going past 4♠ and preventing you from doing it on the next round when you've got this much are about 0. If it does happen, partner surely has the missing aces anyway.

 

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support. Amusingly, what actually happened was partner bid keycard and I put dummy down with Txx JT8xx xx xxx. The defence started with A♦, ♦ [despite the splinter] but partner was too annoyed with my bidding to play properly and cashed AK♥ following with the 2 low ones, thereby cutting himself off from the long spade when the jack dropped doubleton.

[han]

I imagine that this is a joke post and that I'm missing the joke.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I imagine that this is a joke post and that I'm missing the joke.

I think he is calling KenRex a "commie" .

[iviehoff]

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support.

If you do that and partner proves to have short spades, there will be a director call, and under the English approach the psyche will be graded Red, and you will get an artificial adjusted score for "fielding". Under other jurisdictions, the ruling might be more complicated - misinformation, illegal partnership agreement, and concealed partnership agreement are all possible.

 

If that isn't where the "Red" bit of the post name came from, it ought to be.

 

Red Ken is currently a topical phrase in England, because it is the nickname of the former London mayor, Ken Livingstone, who is currently standing for election again against the person who beat him last time, "Bonking" Boris Johnson.

[han]

You will get an adjusted director call for fielding because you cued 4H and partner was able to pass it? Or do they only rule against you when you bid 4H and are overheard saying that you did it in case partner was psyching?

[IanPayn]

 

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support.

 

 

++++Not, frankly, in my top 100 "Reasons to Bid Something".

[CSGibson]

An unusual problem I gave my partner recently:-

 

 

 

[hv=pc=n&n=sakq2hak642dk42ck&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1hp1sp4cp4dp]133|200[/hv]

 

I

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support.

 

Catering to double psychics (1♠ and 4♦) is not a huge priority for me. If this was some unimportant event and I suspected partner was psyching, I would, in fact, shade my actions to punish the psychic bid, in an effort to discourage that type of response from partner.

[petterb]

... but partner was too annoyed with my bidding to play properly and cashed AK♥ following with the 2 low ones, thereby cutting himself off from the long spade when the jack dropped doubleton.

There's no loser to discard on the long spade.

[MickyB]

You forgot to mention that 4H is one off too B-)

[gordontd]

partner was too annoyed with my bidding to play properly

I find that sort of thing tends to happen opposite a psych, which rather adds to their downside.

[Antrax]

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support. Amusingly, what actually happened was partner bid keycard and I put dummy down with Txx JT8xx xx xxx.

Can you explain a bit about the rationale behind this bid? What's wrong with the standard 4♥ response? Were you worried the opponents would find 4♠ and partner won't be able to judge whether to penalize or compete?

[gnasher]

You will get an adjusted director call for fielding because you cued 4H and partner was able to pass it? Or do they only rule against you when you bid 4H and are overheard saying that you did it in case partner was psyching?

The score is adjusted if your actions appear to cater for a psyche.

 

According to the regulations (which are worth reading just for entertainment), intent isn't taken into account. If you do something that "provides evidence" of an agreement (explicit or implicit) that partner might psyche, they cancel the board and replace it with 60-30 or the equivalent.

 

However, the regulations don't actually say that fielding it is illegal. Hence, according to a strict reading of the rules, you're allowed to intentionally field a psyche, as long as there's no agreement about psyching. If you can cater for the psyche without appearing to do so, that seems to be a legitimate tactic.

 

The relevant rules are in section 6 of the Orange Book.

Edited April 22, 2012 by gnasher

[cherdano]

According to the regulations (which are worth reading just for entertainment), intent isn't taken into account.

 

We seem to have rather different notions of entertainment.

[wank]

Can you explain a bit about the rationale behind this bid? What's wrong with the standard 4♥ response? Were you worried the opponents would find 4♠ and partner won't be able to judge whether to penalize or compete?

 

obviously it's a rather minority view to psyche on a hand like this but the logic would include the following factors:-

 

1) partner only opened at the 1 level so his values are limited and we only have 1HCP ourselves so the opps very likely have the majority of the points despite 2nd hand's pass

2) with 10+ hearts between us the opps must also have a strong fit

3) bidding 1♠ makes it tricky for them to get to spades if they should and will make them wary that I've got values too, without promising so much that partner will get too excited, unlike if i gave a 2/1 instead.

4) holding 3 spades as opposed to fewer, makes it less likely partner has 4 of them in which case there won't be any problem about partner passing when we bid hearts later.

5) even if we catch partner with support we might be able to get back to hearts (hence the 4♦ cuebid to try and attract a 4♥ cue to pass)

6) we're nv so if the wheels do come off and we end up in a ridiculous contract it might still prove cheap if the opps have a game

7) a more normal 4♥ response will show the opps we have a strong fit and will make acting more attractive despite the high level

[rmnka447]

With the second psyche of 4 ♦, I don't think any director would let the result stand.

 

If 4 ♦ were a legitimate bid, it would certainly be reasonable for opener to take more aggressive action than simply bidding 4 ♥. Opener might use RKCB or even bid slam directly. So 4 ♥ could be viewed as fielding the psyche.

 

Unless bridge logic has uncovered the psyche, psycher's partner can't take any action that can be construed as fielding the psyche. Therefore, in the US, the director would at the minimum assign an adjusted score for the hand. Additional penalties might follow if the nature of the psyche was deemed egregious enough.

 

The burden of proof that the psyche was not fielded lies with psycher and his partner because fielding a psyche really constitutes a tacit illegal partnership agreement.

[wank]

i suspect you don't understand that 4♥ is forcing.

[phil_20686]

Yes I do not understand anyone who thinks cuebidding 4H can be ruled against as fielding. Aren't you just confirming you have a pretty good suit that partner can probably set up in grand? I guess there is an argument that if partner has two aces we will be making grand anyway, but I would like partner to be able to stay out of grand when he has some JTxxxx xxx Ax Ax. The only way that happens if if I tell my partner now that my hand is about hearts.

 

I guess keycard works pretty well if you can later ask for a third round heart control specifically, but that depends on what you play after 4n-5h. Some people would play 6H now as an offer of a place to play with AKQxxx hearts, some will play it as looking for grand and showing the heart K, and some will play it as asking for a third round heart control, I much prefer the latter method, but its not universal I don't think.

 

Still, how can a bid which is looking for a GS in a suit partner has supposedly psyched be fielding? it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

 

 

[paulg]

Still, how can a bid which is looking for a GS in a suit partner has supposedly psyched be fielding? it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support.

 

If this were said to a director or AC, pretty sure they would feel it was fielding.

[Zelandakh]

The main advantage of bidding 4♥ is to avoid hanging partner when he's psyched a spade response with long heart support.

If you do this often enough that your partner has reason to suspect it then it is (imho) part of your partnership agreements and needs to be disclosed. I find it funny that the OP picked out the opening bid as suspect when I would regard every other bid in the auction as more questionable.

[billw55]

So let me see. You psyched, then psyched again, lost the post mortem, then appealed it to the forum on the grounds that partner should have made a bid that caters to the double psyche.

 

:blink:

 

Appeal without merit, deposit forfeited!

[ArtK78]

I have said it before, and I will say it again.

 

If there is a bad result occurs one member of the partnership psyches, the blame is on the psycher no matter what happened after the psyche.

[phil_20686]

If this were said to a director or AC, pretty sure they would feel it was fielding.

 

I wasn't suggesting you admit your guilt....

 

There seem to be enough reasonable bridge reasons to bid 4H that if you are going to rule this as fielding without an admission, you are basically just ruling against every psyche that turns out ok. I mean the principle here seems to be that some people who dont know anything about your style, system or continuations might have bid differently, and that would have turned out worse, so better rule fielded misbid. Just seems bizarre to me.

 

You are allowed to psyche. You are allowed to get lucky when you do.

[rmnka447]

With a second psyche of 4 ♦, there probably isn't a director anywhere who wouldn't adjust the result.

 

Unless bridge logic tells you that a psyche has occurred, psycher's partner can't make any call that could be interpreted as fielding the psyche. With with opener's hand, a more aggressive move toward slam would be almost certain -- bidding slam directly or possibly using RKCB.

 

The burden of proof that a psyche hasn't been fielded lies with psycher and psycher's partner. In the US, this result would be adjusted. If the director decided the psyching was egregious enough, a further penalty might be made. That's because fielding a psyche without bridge logic to tell you a psyche has occurred is a tacit illegal partnership agreement. In this hand, opener has no reason to believe his partner's bids aren't real. Based on the bidding, slam is almost certain.

[c_corgi]

With a second psyche of 4 ♦, there probably isn't a director anywhere who wouldn't adjust the result.

 

What difference does the 2nd psyche make? FWIW it seems like an attempt to mastermind rather than psyche: he is not trying to misrepresent his holding, but to manipulate partner into cuebidding hearts.

[c_corgi]

However, the regulations don't actually say that fielding it is illegal. Hence, according to a strict reading of the rules, you're allowed to intentionally field a psyche, as long as there's no agreement about psyching. If you can cater for the psyche without appearing to do so, that seems to be a legitimate tactic.

 

This explains a lot. It seems to me that the fielding is (should be) the offence. Whether something is a partnership understanding or not can be quite tenuous and as Phil suggests, not owning up seems like a robust defence in some situations. The regulations appear to be written in such a way as to enable witch-hunts against psyching/deviating from system and (indirectly) discourage helpful disclosure.