Minors over 2NT

[rhm]

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt32hakjdkqj2ca2&n=sh32dat9873ckjt43]133|200[/hv]

 

South opens proceedings with 2NT

 

Playing teams (short matches) we ended up in 6♦, but with a sequence too embarrassing to show.

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

 

I am interested in the following questions:

 

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

 

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?

 

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

 

(I am aware that this type of problem is easier for strong clubbers)

 

Rainer Herrmann

[helene_t]

With Shogi, responder bids 4♠ but I am not sure if we ever discussed the follow-ups :)

[manudude03]

For me (not playing with Helene) an optimistic sequence would be:

 

2NT*-3S (20-22, minor suit stayman)

4D-4S (4+D&3-C, cue)

5C-5S (cue, cue)

5NT-6C (josephine, 1 of top 3)

7D (gambling on partner having the ♣K, very likely given the known void, partner would be bidding differently with ♠AK)

 

*we play 2NT as weak with both minors so it would really start 2D(multi)-2H-2NT.

[Zelandakh]

Assuming that it is agreed not to open 2NT with 5-4 in the majors,

 

2NT - 3♠ = clubs or both minors with slam interest

3NT = 2 clubs

... - 4♠ = both minors with spade void

5♦ = accept slam try, 0 or 3 key cards

... - 5♥ = ♦Q?

5NT = yes, and ♥K

... - 7♦

 

seems to work well enough. With a diamond one-suiter the response would be 4♣ over 2NT; a club one-suiter one can rebid 4♣ over partner's 3NT.

 

With the majors reversed

 

2NT - 3♠ = clubs or both minors with slam interest

3NT = 2 clubs

... - 4♥ = both minors with heart void

4♠ = decline slam try

... - 5♦

 

No stopping in 3/4NT for me in this auction. I suppose you could adjust things to allow for that but only by giving up on some slam accuracy on other hands.

[32519]

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt32hakjdkqj2ca2&n=sh32dat9873ckjt43]133|200[/hv]

 

South opens proceedings with 2NT

 

Playing teams (short matches) we ended up in 6♦, but with a sequence too embarrassing to show.

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

 

I am interested in the following questions:

 

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

 

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?

 

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

 

(I am aware that this type of problem is easier for strong clubbers)

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

I have upvoted this post. I have a further question. If the minor suits were 5/5 and 3/0 in the majors, how do the Puppet Stayman players continue with the bidding to find the minor suit slam?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

From the May 2006 ACBL Bulletin ( in its unmodified form.... since then there have been modifications ):

 

2NT - 3S! = relay to 3NT

3NT - ?? then:

.......... Pass = to play ( Needed since direct 3N is major 4-4 )

.......... 4C = slam try in clubs

.......... 4D = slam try in diam

.......... 4H = Ht splinter, both minors

.......... 4S = Sp splinter, both minors

.......... 4N = invitational to 6N

.......... 5N = forcing to 6N, invitational to 7N

 

For this hand with my own continuations, I can get to 6D ; or if Responder's Majors were reversed -- just 5D

[ I don't know how to handle voids -- Zel's treatment is superior ].

 

2NT - 3S! ( relay to 3NT )

3NT! - 4S! ( both minors; Sp shortness )

??

.. 4NT = sign-off

... 5C/5D = sign-off

next steps are 6 Ace-RKC replies; Opener accepting as if he were "asked"

...5H = 0/3

...5S = 1/4

..5NT = 2 - dQ

... 6C = 2 + dQ

 

After:

5H ( 0/3) - 6C ( for pass or correct )

6D

[32519]

Assuming that it is agreed not to open 2NT with 5-4 in the majors,

 

2NT - 3♠ = clubs or both minors with slam interest

3NT = 2 clubs

... - 4♠ = both minors with spade void

 

How do you differentiate between a ♠ singleton and a ♠ void?

 

This thread of Rainer has really caught my interest.

[Zelandakh]

How do you differentiate between a ♠ singleton and a ♠ void?

 

This thread of Rainer has really caught my interest.

With (12)55 or 11(56) you rebid 4♦ when partner shows 2 clubs with 3NT. Diamonds are implicitly agreed (Opener has at least 3) and I prefer Responder to be in charge even though the weaker hand. Opener would next indicate slam suitability, key cards are shown is appropriate and the right level obtained. Yes it is possible to be off an A-K in the major without having had a cue bidding auction but I have not yet seen any hands where it would happen, whether played, kibbitzed or read. No doubt someone will post one now so I get to read it! It will not make me change methods unless someone comes up with a way of checking for a control which does not negatively impact other slam bidding and is not overly difficult to remember (since this is a rare auction).

[32519]

Assuming that it is agreed not to open 2NT with 5-4 in the majors,

 

2NT - 3♠ = clubs or both minors with slam interest

 

 

As a Puppet player, how does your bidding change when 5/5 in the minors and 3/0 in the majors?

After 2NT-3♣ (Puppet Stayman)

3♦ (no 5-card major) how do you continue for the minor suit slam try?

[Zelandakh]

As a Puppet player, how does your bidding change when 5/5 in the minors and 3/0 in the majors?

After 2NT-3♣ (Puppet Stayman)

3♦ (no 5-card major) how do you continue for the minor suit slam try?

If I am 5-5 in the minors with slam interest, why am I bothering to go via Puppet? We have our fit already. With (13)(54) I would Puppet, but then I have specialised 3M rebids over 3♦ to show 5-4 in the minors. If you want to misuse Puppet on every hand with a 3 card major then I can understand why you dislike it so much!

[mike777]

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt32hakjdkqj2ca2&n=sh32dat9873ckjt43]133|200[/hv]

 

South opens proceedings with 2NT

 

Playing teams (short matches) we ended up in 6♦, but with a sequence too embarrassing to show.

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

 

I am interested in the following questions:

 

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

 

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?

 

 

 

 

 

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

 

(I am aware that this type of problem is easier for strong clubbers)

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

 

2nt=3s(mss)

4d=5s(exclusion)

5nt(3)=7d

 

if the majors are switched I go down in 6d on a heart lead.

 

option two is more delicate and judgment:

 

 

2nt=3s(mss)

4d=4s(spade void, since no 4h rkc bid)(4h would be rkc in d)(4nt would be h void)

5c=5d

5h=6c(kc)(deny Kh)

7d

 

 

with single suited minor I start with 3c and rebid 4 of the minor, natural.

[Finch]

As a Puppet player, how does your bidding change when 5/5 in the minors and 3/0 in the majors?

After 2NT-3♣ (Puppet Stayman)

3♦ (no 5-card major) how do you continue for the minor suit slam try?

 

You've now asked the same question twice - any reason for that?

 

Anyway, speaking as a puppet Stayman player if I had a hand such as xxx - A109xx KJ10xx I would not start with 3C, I would show a slam try with 5-5 in the minors.

[nigel_k]

I prefer 3♠ as minors or diamonds, and 4♣ directly over 2NT as single suited clubs. This means that opener will rebid 4♦ setting trumps on this hand. If you play 3♠ as minors or clubs you can't do this. So we are in a cue bidding sequence after 4♦. Responder's 4♠ denies a heart control and therefore opener's 5♣ shows one. You will confidently reach at least 6♦ after that.

[32519]

2nt=3s(mss)

4d=5s(exclusion)

5nt(3)=7d

 

if the majors are switched I go down in 6d on a heart lead.

 

option two is more delicate and judgment:

 

2nt=3s(mss)

4d=4s(spade void, since no 4h rkc bid)(4h would be rkc in d)(4nt would be h void)

5c=5d

5h=6c(kc)(deny Kh)

7d

 

with single suited minor I start with 3c and rebid 4 of the minor, natural.

 

This is very close to what I was toying with as well. MSS works here because opener had a 4-card minor. What do you do after MSS and opener has a 4432 or 4423 holding?

[32519]

You've now asked the same question twice - any reason for that?

 

Anyway, speaking as a puppet Stayman player if I had a hand such as xxx - A109xx KJ10xx I would not start with 3C, I would show a slam try with 5-5 in the minors.

 

What is your next bid to advertise 5-5 in the minors? MSS is more often than not made with a 5-4 holding in the minors. My question to you is the same one I asked Mike777. After MSS how does your bidding continue when opener has a 4432 or 4423 holding (or even 5332 for that matter)?

[32519]

These minor suit orientated hands after a 2NT opening cannot be seen in isolation. I am looking for constructive (logical) bidding agreements that can adequately describe these sorts of hands without forgetting how (my) other bidding agreements may be affected e.g.

1. Texas / SA Texas when transferring into a 6-card major

2. Gerber (for those who still use Gerber over 1NT/2NT)

3. 4-Way transfer bids

4. Minor Suit Stayman

5. Smolen (usually 5/4 in the majors but can also be 6/4)

6. Puppet Stayman (this one has now been ruled out by both Zelandakh and Frances Hinden when 5/5 in the minors)

 

Mike777’s suggestion is similar to what I was considering but I hit a wall when opener doesn’t have a 4-card minor.

 

What this thread hasn’t addressed yet is 5/5 in the minors and a bust. How do you sign off in 4 of either minor with a bust?

[pigpenz]

I like the aces scientific method

2NT 3♠relay

3NT now bids correspond to broken or solid minors suits for single suited minor hands(above in one example)

 

2NT 4♠ minor suit stayman

[mike777]

This is very close to what I was toying with as well. MSS works here because opener had a 4-card minor. What do you do after MSS and opener has a 4432 or 4423 holding?

 

 

I would bid 4s over pards 3nt.....NOT LONG SPADES, NOT 4-4 IN THE MINORS.

 

now I may miss slam or the grand....

 

to be honest this has never come up.

[pigpenz]

I ran a dealmaster pro analysis for this

and it looks like on this hand you are screwed <_<

2NT 12%

4♣ 20%

4♦ 25%

 

this for someone who asked about 0hcp and 5-5

[32519]

Some numbers to add to this discussion:

 

The probabilities of being dealt a minor suit orientated hand in the slam zone opposite a 2NT:

5/4 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 5.22%

5/5 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 0.67%

6/5 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 0.20%

6/6 in the minors and 8-20 HCP = 0.01%

Total.......................................= 6.10%

 

The probabilities of being dealt a minor suit orientated hand in the game zone opposite a 2NT:

5/4 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 1.44%

5/5 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 0.18%

6/5 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 0.06%

6/6 in the minors and 5-7 HCP = 0.00% (so remote as to be negligible)

Total......................................= 1.68%

 

The probabilities of being dealt a minor suit orientated hand in the bust zone opposite a 2NT:

5/4 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.62%

5/5 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.08%

6/5 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.02%

6/6 in the minors and 0-4 HCP = 0.00% (so remote as to be negligible)

Total......................................= 0.72%

 

Obviously the one to focus on is the 5/4 minor suit holding which favours retaining MSS in our bidding structures. If you’re a top flight player, inevitably you will need an agreement on how to sign off in 4 of either minor with a bust minor suit holding. Tell us what your agreement is. At a 0.72% probability of being dealt such a hand, I believe it worthwhile for top flight players to have such an agreement. 4-Way transfer bids now come to mind, at worst getting you into a 5-2 fit with a bust hand opposite a 2NT.

 

Rainer asked: Minors over 2NT – Do you have good agreements? This has got to include bust minor suit orientated hands as well.

[antonylee]

When I was still in France it would have gone

2N-4♣ (xf (nobody plays Gerber)) (not saying that I'm handling hands with both minors very well, though)

4♦-4♠ (cue)

4N (KC)-6♦ (1, 1 useful void)

6♠ (GST)-7♦

[32519]

Minors Over 2NT: Do you have good agreements?

 

Rainer Herrmann:

This thread of yours appears to have stumped the panel of posters. I have no idea if this has happened before. A handful of people have offered a bidding sequence for the actual hand posted. Thus far, no one has offered a TOTAL GOOD AGREEMENT as suggested in the thread title.

 

My own bidding agreements over 2NT have a much greater focus on the majors. I’m guessing that other regular posters are guilty of the same error as myself. You have opened up a hole in my bidding structures which I am diligently working on to plug.

 

What are my objectives over 2NT? I still want to be able to retain as many as possible of the following:

1. Stayman / Garbage Stayman / Crawling Stayman

2. Jacoby Transfer Bids

3. Smolen (both 5/4 and 6/4 holdings)

4. Minor Suit Stayman / 4-Way transfer bids. As I cannot have both, once I have managed to plug the hole in my bidding agreements, it will become evident which one gets dumped.

5. The ability to show 5/5 in the minors with no slam interest

6. The ability to show 5/5 in the minors with slam interest

7. The ability to sign off in 4 of a minor with a minor suit bust

8. The ability to transfer into a minor suit single suiter and then continue with slam exploration with the appropriate hand

9. Texas / SA Texas in my current agreements will need to go to make room for 5-8 above. This will be accommodated via Jacoby Transfer Bids followed by a raise to game. I still need to decide exactly what I will use the 4♣ and 4♦ bids for now.

10. Gerber has long ago been dumped in favour of a quantitative 4NT

 

I am already facing some creative thinking to restructure my current agreements to accommodate all of the above. I am now asking this for the third time; how do you also include Puppet Stayman in amongst a very scarce resource i.e. available bidding space? To complicate this jigsaw puzzle even further; I need to be able to cope with opposition interference.

 

Great stuff Rainer. We want to see more of these sorts of threads!

[sfi]

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

 

I am interested in the following questions:

 

How do you differentiate single suiters in the minors from minor two suiters?

 

Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?

 

Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

 

We don't play much more than your basic minor suit stayman, where 3S asks and responder bids 3NT to deny one. Over that, responder can show one long one (6/4) by bidding it or two 5+ card minors by bidding a major suit shortage. True single suiters are shown by bidding them at the four level over 2NT (or 5 level if you have no interest in anything but game).

 

On the hand provided, my partner and I came up with:

 

2NT - 3S

4D - 4S*

5C* - 5D

5H* - 6C**

6H** - 7D

 

* = first round control

** = second round control

 

We would have stopped at 5D had the minors been reversed. Over 4D the bidding would have gone 4H - 5C; 5D - Pass.

 

Our system has a number of issues with minors over 2NT, but this hand didn't hit any of them.

[32519]

Yesterday in a weak field with a weak partner the following pair of hands came up:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqt32hakjdkqj2ca2&n=sh32dat9873ckjt43]133|200[/hv]

 

South opens proceedings with 2NT

Assuming a standard framework where over 2NT you play some sort of Stayman and Transfers what set of agreements do you use for minor suit oriented hands like North?

 

I am interested in the following questions:

 

1. Can you suggest a sensible sequence to get to 7♦?

2. Where (important at matchpoints) and how do you stop when North majors would have been reversed?

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

Guys, I think I have come up with a simple, yet very workable solution to Rainer’s quiz on this hand. Utilize the principle of “consuming bidding space to save bidding space.”

 

So, to question 1 I suggest the following:

2NT-4♠ (♠ void and at least 5/5 in the minors)

From this point forward you can use all your slam exploring devices e.g. voidwood, 6-card Blackwood etc for the minors. I have no intention of being prescriptive as to the methods you must follow. Reaching the ♦ grand slam is easy now.

 

In question 2 the ♠ void becomes a ♥ void. I suggest the following bidding sequence:

2NT-4♥ (♥ void and at least 5/5 in the minors)

5♦ (signoff, to play, the ♥ void doesn’t help my hand in any way)

 

To show a 2/1 holding in the majors, have a look at the solution proposed by Mike777. After 2NT-3♠-4♦-4♠

The 4♠ bid could now show a ♠ singleton

 

All I need to do now is to sew up the rest of my bidding agreements after a 2NT opener.

 

How are the rest of you progressing with fixing this hole in your agreements that Rainer has exposed?

[awm]

This hand seems very easy after:

 

2NT - 3♠ (minor suit stayman)

4♦ - 4♠ (agrees diamonds, shortness, slam interest)

 

Opener knows his hand is gold at this point and can drive at least to six, with plenty of space to cue-bid to seven. For example:

 

5♣ - 5♠ (void)

5NT - 6♣

7♦

 

or with slightly different agreements (i.e. if 5♣ doesn't guarantee slam suitability):

 

5♣ - 5♦

5♥ - 5♠

5NT - 6♣

7♦

 

If you start with "3♠ forces 3NT" and then 4♠, you are in the somewhat sticky position of having to both set trumps and explore your grand slam prospects without much space. The "minor suit stayman" method is much superior.