Nonforcing 2/1 Responses In Moscito And Other Club Systems

[pbleighton]

As I understand it, 2/1 responses over one of a major in Moscito, Viking Club, Dwayne Hoffman's KLP, etc. are nonforcing.

 

My question is: what is the upper limit 2/1. If your partner bid 1 spade, and you had a good invitational-strength hand with a decent 5 or 6 card heart suit, would you bid 2 hearts, or go through the 1NT relay, or something else? Is it rally a bailout (to be raised preemptively only), or do you use it to seriously investigate game?

[luis]

We use the 2/1 responses to show constructive hands with less than invitational values. With an invitational hand we relay 1 time and then bid naturally. (2 relays are GF)

 

So with something like AQxxx and a side queen or similar we bid 2/1.

 

A friend of mine deviced a better set of 2/1 responses over a 1s bid which is never balanced and can be a canape. He plays 2/1 as pass/correct trying to bid his pd canape suit with a weak hand. This has the advantage of showing a good fit if the opener actually has any other hand and stopping low without opener showing his canape too high.

 

I'd like to read other structures over 1M and Non-inv 2/1 responses.

 

Luis

[tangent]

The upper range for the non-forcing 2/1 would be just below the minimum required for the forcing response under that system.

 

For moscito which uses the step response as the forcing bid showing 12+ hcp, the upper range would be 11 hcp.

 

For viking which uses 1NT (or 1H over 1D) as the forcing response usually with 12+, the upper range also happens to be 11hcp too.

[mishovnbg]

Nonforcing natural positives have several very serious disadvantages:

1. With 2 suits you must choose 1 and may be not right one. Example (1SP opening): x, KJxxx, QJxxx, Kx.

2. In missfit boards you quickly go to 2 level and can recieve deserve penalty pass after take out dbl or silent "funeral".

3. In fit boards you can win only agains opp that look in their cards only and dont listen your bids. 2 very limited bids show to opp too much information and relative easy count of deal. Yes, i know that some of players dont count during bidding and you can win against them.

4. Your limited answer can block opener canape suit and you can finish at 3 level while others play at 2. Pass or correct is better solution, may be best if opening is only with unbalanced hand. You lose some of limited natural responses ofcourse, but world is not perfect.

Misho

[hrothgar]

mishovnbg wrote:

 

>Nonforcing natural positives have several very serious disadvantages:

 

Hmm. I have always considered this to be one of the real strengths of the system.

 

>1. With 2 suits you must choose 1 and may be not right one. Example >(1SP opening): x, KJxxx, QJxxx, Kx.

 

After a 1H opening showing 4+ Spades, this hand looks like its worth a convention 2NT response showing 5+ Hearts/5+ cards in either minor, and game invitational value. Weaken the hand slightly and it is a 2H response. I agree that a Diamond fit may be lost, however, in practice this does not seem to be a major problem.

 

>2. In mis-fit boards you quickly go to 2 level and can recieve deserve >penalty pass after take out dbl or silent "funeral".

 

By getting to the 2 level quickly, we minimize the information available to the opponents. You are perfectly correct that in a worst case scenario the opponents may find a penalty pass. However, I very much enjoy it when the opponents start competing at the 2 level after auctions like

 

1H - (P) - 2D - ???

 

We already know the extent of our fit. The opponents don't. We are in a much better position to make accurate judgements in a competitive auction than the opponents.

 

>3. In fit boards you can win only agains opp that look in their cards only >and dont listen your bids. 2 very limited bids show to opp too much >information and relative easy count of deal. Yes, i know that some of >players dont count during bidding and you can win against them.

 

Completely incorrect.

Suppose that the auction starts

 

1H - (P) - 2S

1H shows 4+ Spades, might have a longer suit

2S shows exactly 3 spades.

 

I can tell you [ceteris paribus] that our side has a 7 card fit 48% of the time and an 8+ card fit 52% of the time.

 

You are dealt:

 

xx

KJxx

Axx

KJTx

 

What do you do? If we have an 8+ card, a pre balance is imperative. If we have an 7 card fit you are probably playing at the 3 level with 15 total tricks.

 

Our raise structure is carefully designed to minimize the amount of information that the opponents have available. We are placed to understand th extent of our fit, the opponents less so.

 

>4. Your limited answer can block opener canape suit and you can finish >at 3 level while others play at 2. Pass or correct is better solution, may >be best if opening is only with unbalanced hand. You lose some of >limited natural responses of course, but world is not perfect.

 

Our major suit opening do contain balanced hands. Paradox responses are not practical. In addition, the system already has a pass or correct bid. MOSCITO uses a natural and non-forcing 1NT response.

 

Furthermore, a MOSCITO opening can, on occasion, make game opposite responder's 2/1. This suggests that responder must provide some information so opener is appropriately placed to explore game with a fit and a maximum.