1S-1N, 2m-2H

[straube]

Doubt anyone else can use this, but looking for input on our continuations here.

 

Our 1S is 10-15 with 5+.

 

We play 1S-2D is 5+H GI or 6+ minimual responding to GI

 

That means 1S-1N, 2m-2H is available for something other than hearts. We've played it so far as a good raise of the minor. Kind of like 1H-1N, 2m-2S.

 

But I think we can get more out of this bid. I'd like to be able to stop in 2S.

 

So, should it show a GI of spades or the minor? or both? how might we continue?

 

Or, should it be a puppet to 2S...then responder bids again?

 

This way it could go...

 

1S-1N, 2m-2S as invitational 2-fit

1S-1N, 2m-3m as invitational

1S-1N, 2H-2S, P as constructive 2-fit

1S-1N, 2H-2S, 3m as lighter invitational

[wclass___]

You don't have answers for my questions, but you seem to like awm's response to my post.

Presumably he responds 1nt to the opening if he has five hearts and less than invite. This might miss a 5-3 fit if opener is 53(32) and it goes 1s-1n-pass but there are other times 1nt is best, and if it goes 1s-1n-2m-2h partner will know hearts are just five long and remove with 0-1h.

Hadn't even thought of that, but that's a really nice plus to playing this way.

 

I've looked at just a few hands, but I'm noticing a significantly higher use of 2C, 2D, and 2H compared to 2/1 GF. Also, so many of our auctions go 1S-4S now that we would otherwise use 2/1s significantly less than standard systems.

[straube]

What were your questions?

[wclass___]

Your scheme featured 1♠-2♦-2♥ as ''other, misfitting'' and 2♠ as ''6 spades, most strengths''. I claimed that some other method is better on which you gave single argument that you would ''rather chance a 6-0 than a 5-0.'' On which I asked what you do with 5♥0-1♠ over partners 2♥ = ''other, misfitting''. Then from what I understand from your argument and awm's response is that you never pass 2♥ with 5♥ and commit yourself to 3rd level.

Didn't feel necessity to contribute more to that thread.

So It feels to me like there should be a way to show 5♥ and stop in 2nd level ....so answer to OP lies in awm's response.

[straube]

I see. Yes, we only respond 2D with 6 hearts or with 5 hearts planning a rebid. If responder has 5 hearts and 0/1/2 spades and less than GI values, he has to respond 1N (semiforcing). So after 1S-2D, 2H-P responder is known to have 6 hearts.

 

I'm sorry that I didn't respond to your question at the time. I don't recollect if it was oversight or whether I thought awm answered your question for me.

[akhare]

 

But I think we can get more out of this bid. I'd like to be able to stop in 2S.

 

So, should it show a GI of spades or the minor? or both? how might we continue?

 

Or, should it be a puppet to 2S...then responder bids again?

 

This way it could go...

 

1S-1N, 2m-2S as invitational 2-fit

1S-1N, 2m-3m as invitational

1S-1N, 2H-2S, P as constructive 2-fit

1S-1N, 2H-2S, 3m as lighter invitational

 

If one of the objectives is to stop in 2♠, how would the puppet be able to accomplish that *and* show an invitational hand with 2 spades?

 

So, it's probably more of a relay to 2♠ than a puppet and opener ostensibly bids it with a hand that would reject an invitation with 2 card support or bids something else otherwise, right?

[straube]

If one of the objectives is to stop in 2♠, how would the puppet be able to accomplish that *and* show an invitational hand with 2 spades?

 

So, it's probably more of a relay to 2♠ than a puppet and opener ostensibly bids it with a hand that would reject an invitation with 2 card support or bids something else otherwise, right?

 

Well, I'd been thinking that the puppet would generally announce a weaker hand. Opener would accept the puppet unless he would bid over a 2S preference...I.e. showing a bigger hand.

 

So 1S-1N, 2C-2S would show invitational strength with 2 spades.

1S-1N, 2C-3C would show invitational strength and fit

1S-1N, 2C-2H, 2S-3C would show a light invite of clubs

 

I'm not married to this, but I'd like to be able to play 2S with both invitational and weak preference hands. This is one way. Perhaps there are others.

[straube]

wclass, yeah, we've talked about 1S-1N, 2m-2H showing five hearts. For instance if responder has 1525 we'll be very stuck if opener has shown side diamonds. I think I had looked at a few hands and felt that the misfit hands weren't frequent enough. Maybe I should look at a few more. I would think that responder would only want to show hearts with fewer than 2 spades and fewer than 3 of opener's minor and less than GI strength. That lets opener rescue with six spades (2S) or bail in 2N with a known misfit...not the best contract but hopefully better than a 5-1 major suit fit.

[Zelandakh]

One thing you have not told us here that I think is relevant is whether the 2m rebid is 3+ or 4+. If 3+ then it makes sense to me for 2♠ to show this hand. So

 

1♠ - 1NT; 2m - 2♥ = good raise of m or invitational with om

=================

2♠ = min, 5(23)3 (effectively a choice of part-score)

2NT = asks for hand type (3m = nat with min, 3♥ = clubs, max, 3♠ = diamonds, max)

3♣ = p/c

3♦ = invite for diamonds, GF for clubs

 

If 2m promises 4 then you could use the same structure but now 2♠ can show a minimum opening with 6 spades. This kind of structure is probably very familiar to you if you play something like Muiderberg, therefore easy to remember. Of course you have to decide whether using 2♥ naturally is worth more to you - if you were to do so then you might also consider taking the weak variant out of the 2♦ response altogether leaving it as INV+.

[straube]

One thing you have not told us here that I think is relevant is whether the 2m rebid is 3+ or 4+. If 3+ then it makes sense to me for 2♠ to show this hand. So

 

1♠ - 1NT; 2m - 2♥ = good raise of m or invitational with om

=================

2♠ = min, 5(23)3 (effectively a choice of part-score)

2NT = asks for hand type (3m = nat with min, 3♥ = clubs, max, 3♠ = diamonds, max)

3♣ = p/c

3♦ = invite for diamonds, GF for clubs

 

If 2m promises 4 then you could use the same structure but now 2♠ can show a minimum opening with 6 spades. This kind of structure is probably very familiar to you if you play something like Muiderberg, therefore easy to remember. Of course you have to decide whether using 2♥ naturally is worth more to you - if you were to do so then you might also consider taking the weak variant out of the 2♦ response altogether leaving it as INV+.

 

Our 1N is semi forcing so we like to show the long weak heart hand immediately. Opener's 2m rebid promises 4....even after an 1 H opening. Also, 1M-3C and 1S-3D are weak jump shifts so responder can show invitational om by bidding 3m on his rebid so no need to use 2H for this. Sorry not to have explained more. Thanks for your help.

[rbforster]

If you played 1N as forcing, you could play to 2H as an art GF, since with just a 1M-2C GF relay you may have some hands/questions that can't be well managed. Harder to put in really good hands when they get. Passed out in 1N

[straube]

Yeah. We've strained to make 1N semiforcing, We've got rid of the heart hands and the limit raise hands, too. It's true that 1M-2C doesn't let responder show his own shapely hand, but more often it makes sense for opener to complete his description.

[rbforster]

David - can you comment a little more on the inferences on opener's 2m rebid in your system? For example, what hands would rebid 2M in preference to showing a 4m suit? Is that how you bid a minimum 6-4? What about your 2M openers? Are those available for a weak 6M hand that might overlap with the low end of your 10-15 1M range?

 

I ask about this because if you are thinking about showing an invite vs constructive 2 card preference to 2♠, it would seem to matter what value range opener could have when he was in fact holding a 6M suit and you might have a real fit. Otherwise, if that's not possible or likely, you're more just judging whether to play 2M on a misfit vs 2N.

 

Another question - do you play any BART or similar over 1♠ - 1N - 2♣, or is 2♦ there just natural NF? You can fit in all sorts of stuff in the space there if you give up stopping in exactly 2♦.

[straube]

David - can you comment a little more on the inferences on opener's 2m rebid in your system? For example, what hands would rebid 2M in preference to showing a 4m suit? Is that how you bid a minimum 6-4? What about your 2M openers? Are those available for a weak 6M hand that might overlap with the low end of your 10-15 1M range?

 

I ask about this because if you are thinking about showing an invite vs constructive 2 card preference to 2♠, it would seem to matter what value range opener could have when he was in fact holding a 6M suit and you might have a real fit. Otherwise, if that's not possible or likely, you're more just judging whether to play 2M on a misfit vs 2N.

 

Another question - do you play any BART or similar over 1♠ - 1N - 2♣, or is 2♦ there just natural NF? You can fit in all sorts of stuff in the space there if you give up stopping in exactly 2♦.

 

Sure thing. Rebid of 2m promises four+ always. With a very weak 6/4, we'd rebid 2M instead of the minor...that means that 1S-1N, 2m-2N-3S is forcing. Our 2M opener is 5-9. I would rather 7-11 to have the overlap you're talking about, but partner prefers the lighter range. So 1S-1N, 2S is 10-15 (although many 15s are opened 1C).

 

We don't play BART. We like to be able to sign off in 2D plus we have enough stuff to memorize :)

 

So we still have 1S-1N, 2m-2H available. We can use it for the 1525 misfits, but it's also nice to be able to raise partner's minor lightly and invitationally, etc.

 

I'm still kind of thinking of 2H as a puppet...partner would ordinarily accept unless he had a hand that would bid over a 2S sign off. That way 1S-1N, 2m-2S shows tolerance and invitational strength and we don't have to play 2N. And we get both our minor raises.

 

Let me know if you have any more questions or arrive at something better. Thanks for being interested.

[wclass___]

Out of curiosity:

♠x ♥AQTxx ♦J8xx ♣Axx Is this 2♦? If so, then how do you bid over partners 2♥/2♠?

♠xx ♥KQJxx ♦KTxx ♣xx How do you aim to handle this?

 

[straube]

Out of curiosity:

♠x ♥AQTxx ♦J8xx ♣Axx Is this 2♦? If so, then how do you bid over partners 2♥/2♠?

♠xx ♥KQJxx ♦KTxx ♣xx How do you aim to handle this?

 

let's say that the first hand qualifies as invitational (usually 12-13 for us because we open many 10 counts). We would respond 2D and then rebid 2N over partner's 2M rebid.

 

The second hand would respond 1N and pass a 2D rebid or correct to a 2S contract after a 2C rebid. So fairly standard here except that we will know if partner's minor is four cards in length. We're deciding now whether to use 1S-1N, 2m-2H as a puppet to 2S.

[rbforster]

Or, should it be a puppet to 2S...then responder bids again?

 

This way it could go...

 

1S-1N, 2m-2S as invitational 2-fit

1S-1N, 2m-3m as invitational

1S-1N, 2H-2S, P as constructive 2-fit

1S-1N, 2H-2S, 3m as lighter invitational

This is ok, but I think you may want to reverse it, i.e. 2♥ shows the better hands and direct bids show the worse ones. This is because you'd like opener to be able to make some descriptive bid sometimes instead of just 2♠ (when he has a pretty good hand), but you want this to be relatively safe and you have more space if you do it before responder preempts you by bidding 2N or 3m.

 

For these purposes, and for what I've tried to do in my methods, I divide up the opener's hands into 3 ranges - min, mid, and max corresponding to 10-11/12-13/14-15 approximately. The idea would be that if 2♥ showed an invite opposite a mid range hand or better (strong invite), then opener with an acceptance could now make various forward-going bids instead of 2♠ to help clarify strain, etc. On the other hand, direct bids would be lighter invites and tend to invite only opposite a maximum hand by opener.

 

1♠-1N-2♦- ?

 

2H art generally stronger invite (~12-13ish typically, could be balanced 10-11 with doubleton major tho)

....2S any min opener (responder passes or corrects to 2N/3m as appropriate)

....2N mid, catchall (responder will bid on unless holding the 10-11 balanced hand)

....3C max, catchall (could have club fragment, or semi balanced with concern about NT stoppers)

....3D mid, 5+/5+ (NF opposite the weaker responding hand only)

....3H max, fragment 5341

....3S max, 6-4

....3N max, 5242 with cards in the short suits

2S weak preference

2N sound invite (~12-13), but 0-1 spades (bid 2H with doubleton and good values instead)

3C light invite with a good suit

3D light raise

 

I'm assuming you'll make a precision jump rebid by opener with some distributional maximums, so some of those aren't accounted for above. I also tried to arrange the bids so you could make a light NT invite, but still get out in 2M opposite a bad hand or 2N opposite a medium hand that wasn't accepting.

 

What do you think?

[rbforster]

We don't play BART. We like to be able to sign off in 2D plus we have enough stuff to memorize :)

Here's a nice writeup called Anti-BART by Josh Sher that you may find useful if you change your mind :).

[straube]

Your scheme works well.

 

You have given me an idea based on separating into three ranges.

 

1S-1N, 2m-

 

2H-suggests 2S unless very maximum

2S-

P-7-9' doubleton

2N-15(52) misfit

3m-light invite

2S-2 spades and 10-11

2N-12-13, 0-2 spades

3m-good invite

[rbforster]

Your scheme works well.

 

You have given me an idea based on separating into three ranges.

 

1S-1N, 2m-

 

2H-suggests 2S unless very maximum

..... 2S-

.......... P-7-9' doubleton

.......... 2N-15(52) misfit

.......... 3m-light invite

2S-2 spades and 10-11

2N-12-13, 0-2 spades

3m-good invite

Was there something you didn't like about my version? It seems a bit more comprehensive than this one. In particular, note that you don't need to show 0-1 vs 2 spades when opener has a min (since he won't have a 6-4 min and rebid 2m), but you do want to be able to find the 6-2 fit opposite a medium strength opener.

 

Another question you should answer for yourself is how you bid maximum hands with 6(332) shape. Are you willing to jump to 3M with only a 6 card suit (possibly a poor one) and no shortness? I don't like to. If not, what does this mean for your 1M-1N-2M rebid? Is it really everything from a 10 hcp 6 bagger to a 6-4 15 count? I know some people who will bid 2♣ with a max 6(322), possibly on only 2 clubs, and plan to raise a 2♠ preference later. I haven't thought through this entirely, but there's certainly an issue that the 2M rebid has a wide range even in Precision (and an even wider range in std).

[straube]

Yeah, we're forced with 6322 to decide between 2S and 3S. We usually take the low road. I've argued for 2M to be 7-11 so that 1M-1N, 2M is 12-15. OTOH, many of our 15 counts open 1C so rebidding the major is usually 10-14.

 

As far as your structure, My concerns are that...

 

1S-1N, 2m-2S is likely a dead end. That represents sequence loss. I'd rather 2S was forward-going and showing something useful.

 

One other thing is ease of memorization....like the mid or max temporizing bids.

 

The last thing is it might be useful to be able to sign off in 2N with a misfit. The structure I came up with makes 1S-1N, 2m-2N ambiguous as to number of spades but partner with a medium/max 6/4 can check back. Your structure clarifies whether responder (with 12-13 hcps) has 0-1 or 2 spades, but this is unnecessary for us...because opener cannot have minimum 6/4

 

What do you think of my last? Where does it lose?btw, traveling with partner but he's driving so hecan'tlook at both, but I'll have him do so.

[straube]

I think a better example would be...

 

1S-1N, 2m-2H, 2N-P and we could have opener with a 6/4 12 count and responder with a 10 pt 2-fit.

 

Foobar likes your approach better so we'll have to debate it.

[rbforster]

Here are some non-game-going cases to consider to help compare the two methods. (GF values should be able to work out the right strain either way)

 

Opener....Responder.....Your Auction.....My Auction......Comments

Max.........preference......2H-not 2S.........2S-P............... I think you can get too high trying to pre accept over a preference sign off

Max.........inv- <2M...........2N-> 3N/4M......2S-P................if opener can't make a jump rebid, we take the low road here on a misfit. Could miss 3N if the tricks are there.

Mid..........inv- 2M...........2H-2S-2N.........2H-2N..............same, we both could miss a 6-2 partial (* see edit)

Mid..........inv- <2M.........2H-2S-2N.........2S-P................I take the low road, hoping to scramble to more trump tricks rather than trying 2N on 22-24 hcp misfit

Min..........inv- 2M...........2S-P.................2H-2S-P..........same

Min..........inv- <2M.........2H-2S-2N.........2S-P...............nothing is great, but I think I'd rather play 2M than 2N on 20-22 hcp misfit

Min..........inv+ 2M..........2N-P..................2H-2S-P.........here I think with a 5-2 fit, 2M is probably better than 2N

Min..........inv+ <2M........2N-P..................2H-2S-2N.......same

 

In short, I am a bit more pessimistic in general, and specifically we get to play 2M over 2N on some weaker misfits which I think is a win. I can miss some games, but you have to play a level higher on some busted invites.

 

Edit: I think I can pick up the 6-2 partials for Mid-vs-(light Inv with 2M) in my methods by having the 2H-3S bid show 6-4 Mid instead of 6-4 Max and shuffle the Max hands around a little. This way we play 3S instead of 2N on the declined invite, which should be an improvement.