timid passed hand limit raise

[Stephen Tu]

[hv=sn=Robot&s=SA97HAJ985D4CT753&wn=Robot&w=SKT42H6DKQ765CQ82&nn=Robot&n=S63HKQT73DAJ92CK9&en=stephtu&e=SQJ85H42DT83CAJ64&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=PPP1H(Major suit opening -- 5+ H%3B 11-21 HCP%3B 12-22 total points)P3H(Limit major raise -- 4+ H%3B 11- HCP%3B 10-12 total points)PPP&p=H2H9H6H7D4D6DAD3D2D8HAD7H8S4HTH4DJDTHJD5S7SKS3S5S2S6SJSAS9STH3S8D9C4H5DQCTC2C9CJSQC7CQCKCAC5C8HQHKC6C3DK]400|300[/hv]

 

Seems wrong to me to only bid 3h. Somehow it should bid 4d or 4h IMO, given that it doesn't play drury.

[barmar]

GIB bids this hand the same whether it's passed or unpassed. Does your subject line imply that you think it should bid differently when it's a passed hand?

[Stephen Tu]

I'm not going to bid a passable limit raise with the south hand, that's for sure, in any position. It's arguably a bit light for 4d if unpassed hand, and too heavy for 4h (partner won't expect 2 bullets), but to me 4h > 3h, missing a slam isn't as bad or frequent as missing a game, I think probability missing game too high. Passed hand spl in theory works better since you are limited by the original pass, so partner doesn't play you for having another black K or QJ.

 

So basically for these 5 cd support hands with stiff/void, too strong to meet book bid of 4h (which shouldn't be too strong lest opener get too tempted to bid on), but not strong enough to splinter, I think GIB should bid game anyway. Or at least allow simulation between bidding 3h and 4h, figure out if it's missing too many games. If it's simulating and still bidding only 3, maybe it knows something I don't.

 

Std methods this is kind of a hole, splinter really expects an extra high card in a black suit, and 4M really shouldn't have two bullets. It's easier if playing some system with a mini-splinter or tiered splinters, or bergen raise type of thing where you can LR then raise to game, or some gadget like 3nt = 4M raise with a side trick like I have played before.

[cloa513]

[hv=sn=Robot&s=SA97HAJ985D4CT753&wn=Robot&w=SKT42H6DKQ765CQ82&nn=Robot&n=S63HKQT73DAJ92CK9&en=stephtu&e=SQJ85H42DT83CAJ64&d=e&v=b&b=10&a=PPP1H(Major suit opening -- 5+ H%3B 11-21 HCP%3B 12-22 total points)P3H(Limit major raise -- 4+ H%3B 11- HCP%3B 10-12 total points)PPP&p=H2H9H6H7D4D6DAD3D2D8HAD7H8S4HTH4DJDTHJD5S7SKS3S5S2S6SJSAS9STH3S8D9C4H5DQCTC2C9CJSQC7CQCKCAC5C8HQHKC6C3DK]400|300[/hv]

 

Seems wrong to me to only bid 3h. Somehow it should bid 4d or 4h IMO, given that it doesn't play drury.

The real problem is that North passed the limit raise.

[georgi]

To accept this invite as default book bid, GIB needs 15TP, upper hand has 14.

 

But after it simulates, it seems like almost always the invite is accepted.

 

To bid 1Major 4Major GIB will do with hands up to 8HCP (without opps actions).

 

Splinter by passed hands needs 12TP, where this hand had 11TP.

 

The hand ♠Axx♥AJxxx♦-♣10xxxx would do it -> Pass and 4♦.

[Stephen Tu]

I guess my feeling is that with 5cd support + stiff/void, there should be no strength gap between "hands that can bid 4h", and "hands strong enough to spl". It's bad to languish at 3 level with 10 cd fit, partner is not accepting on worse than these and still you have games that are 50% to cold, this is disaster. This happen way more often than miss slam because 4h too strong, over limit raise type hand slam is very rare to be intelligently bid. I don't think risk of go down 1 in 4h opposite min is enough to make up for missed games.

 

So either extend ceiling of 4M if have appropriate shape, or lower the lower bound for spl so there is no hole.