Positive Response to 2C

[Bbradley62]

[hv=lin=pn|JoeyDinky,~~M31401,~~M31399,~~M31400|st%7C%7Cmd%7C3S8TJQKAHKD6JC67QA%2CS267H478QD34589CT%2CS4H269JAD2QC3459K%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%201%7Csv%7Co%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2C%7Can%7CStrong%20two%20club%20--%2019%2B%20HCP%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%202N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2D%7Can%7C2D%20bid%20waiting%20--%2011-%20HCP%3B%2012-%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%202N%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Can%7COpener%5C%27s%20suit%20--%205%2B%20S%3B%2019%2B%20HCP%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203S%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3H%7Can%7C4%2B%20H%3B%2011-%20HCP%3B%205-12%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%203N%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7C19%2B%20HCP%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6N%7Can%7C4%2B%20H%3B%2011%20HCP%3B%2012%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CD3%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH5%7C]360|270[/hv]

GIB's explanation of a 2♥ response to a 2♣ opening is "5+H; 6+ 8421HCP; 8+ total points". Why did GIB reply 2♦ here?

[PrecisionL]

Probably because the ♥ suit is too weak, less than 2 of the 3 top honors.

 

Another possibility is that the 2♣ bid is a little light (i.e. it has more losers than defensive Quick Tricks).

[Stephen Tu]

I think there is some rule requiring 2 of top 3 honors like some humans play (I personally think misguided rule); so ace is probably not enough.

[Stephen Tu]

 

Another possibility is that the 2♣ bid is a little light (i.e. it has more losers than defensive Quick Tricks).

 

Shouldn't have an effect on the response, as it doesn't know partner opened a tad light, no? This seems irrelevant in terms of why it didn't respond 2h.

[Bbradley62]

Probably because the ♥ suit is too weak, less than 2 of the 3 top honors.

I think there is some rule requiring 2 of top 3 honors like some humans play (I personally think misguided rule); so ace is probably not enough.

If this is true, it would be nice if the description of the bid reflected this...

[hv=lin=pn|JoeyDinky,~~M31401,~~M31399,~~M31400|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S2TJQKAHAD5AC27JA%2CS45679H59D68JKC4Q%2CS8H4678JQKDTC59TK%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2011%7Csv%7Co%7Cmb%7C2C%7Can%7CStrong%20two%20club%20--%2019%2B%20HCP%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%202N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Can%7CPositive%20--%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%202N%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3S%7Can%7C19%2B%20HCP%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4C%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CBlackwood%20%28C%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%2025%2B%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5D%7Can%7COne%20or%20four%20key%20cards%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%3B%201%2B%20controls%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5N%7Can%7CQuery%20kings.%20Have%20all%20keycards.%20Does%20not%20promise%20extras%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%202%2B%208421%20HC%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6C%7Can%7CNo%20king%20%28below%20C%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%3B%201%2B%20controls%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C7N%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%2030%2B%20HCP%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%202%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CD3%7C]360|270[/hv]

[cloa513]

If this is true, it would be nice if the description of the bid reflected this...

[hv=lin=pn|JoeyDinky,~~M31401,~~M31399,~~M31400|st%7C%7Cmd%7C1S2TJQKAHAD5AC27JA%2CS45679H59D68JKC4Q%2CS8H4678JQKDTC59TK%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%2011%7Csv%7Co%7Cmb%7C2C%7Can%7CStrong%20two%20club%20--%2019%2B%20HCP%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%202N%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%7Can%7CPositive%20--%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%20to%202N%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3S%7Can%7C19%2B%20HCP%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%2023%2B%20total%20points%3B%20forcing%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4C%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CBlackwood%20%28C%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%2025%2B%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5D%7Can%7COne%20or%20four%20key%20cards%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%3B%201%2B%20controls%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5N%7Can%7CQuery%20kings.%20Have%20all%20keycards.%20Does%20not%20promise%20extras%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%202%2B%208421%20HC%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6C%7Can%7CNo%20king%20%28below%20C%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20H%3B%206%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20H%3B%208%2B%20total%20points%3B%201%2B%20controls%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C7N%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%2030%2B%20HCP%3B%20strong%20rebiddable%20S%3B%202%2B%208421%20HCP%20in%20C%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7CD6%7Cpc%7CDT%7Cpc%7CDQ%7Cpc%7CDA%7Cpc%7CHA%7Cpc%7CH9%7Cpc%7CH4%7Cpc%7CH2%7Cpc%7CC2%7Cpc%7CC4%7Cpc%7CCK%7Cpc%7CC3%7Cpc%7CHK%7Cpc%7CH3%7Cpc%7CD5%7Cpc%7CH5%7Cpc%7CHQ%7Cpc%7CHT%7Cpc%7CC7%7Cpc%7CS4%7Cpc%7CHJ%7Cpc%7CD2%7Cpc%7CCJ%7Cpc%7CD8%7Cpc%7CH8%7Cpc%7CD9%7Cpc%7CS2%7Cpc%7CS9%7Cpc%7CS8%7Cpc%7CS3%7Cpc%7CSA%7Cpc%7CS6%7Cpc%7CSK%7Cpc%7CS7%7Cpc%7CC5%7Cpc%7CD7%7Cpc%7CSQ%7Cpc%7CS5%7Cpc%7CC9%7Cpc%7CD4%7Cpc%7CSJ%7Cpc%7CCQ%7Cpc%7CH6%7Cpc%7CC8%7Cpc%7CST%7Cpc%7CDK%7Cpc%7CCT%7Cpc%7CC6%7Cpc%7CCA%7Cpc%7CDJ%7Cpc%7CH7%7Cpc%7CD3%7C]360|270[/hv]

Rather the mislead 6 of 8421 pt in hearts where a ace is 8 of 8421 pts.

[pigpenz]

I have always found that GIB has 2/3 top honors for positive response.

this is great way to play but unfortunately it doesnt play anthing else after

this...rule of thumb let big hand say what it has, so AJXXX even with 10hcp is

waiting bid unless balanced thenyou can bid some quantitavie form of NT, but even

then it usually works to let 2♣ show what he has first.

 

2/1 style after 3♠ would ask for cue bids aces, 3NT would say no aces but has Kings,

so 4♣ would be King ask, which is big card on this hand.

[barmar]

Yes, GIB requires 2 of top 3. Here are the possibilities, with their 8421 HCP's (the ranges allow for lower honors):

 

AK = 12-15

AQ = 10-11

KQ = 6-7

A(no KQ) = 8-9

K(no AQ) = 4-5

Q(no AK) = 2-3

 

Since we can only display a single 8421 range, there's no way to use this notation to indicate that we can have KQ but not AJ. And there are no booleans in GIB's specification mechanism -- I've already mentioned many times that we can't express "A or B", and here we see that we can't express "A but not B", either. (We do have boolean logic in deciding whether a hand fits the criteria for a bid, which is how it implements "2 of top 3" -- but the specification of what a bid shows is much simpler.)

 

So our choice is to either display 6+, which includes AJ, or display 10+, which excludes KQ. Pick your poison.

 

We also can't use suit quality for this. The suit quality metrics count the number of honors, not just the top 3.