2/1 = ALMOST game force

[the hog]

Good point! Treat 2NT as if it were a new suit, this is very simple and extremely handy and I have been playing it ever since 1990, but only with friend.

 

1H - 2C

2H - 2NT

3S - ??

 

Your op said 2/1 almost gf. Make up your mind.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

The hands are:

[hv=pc=n&s=s93hqj3dj53c98542&w=skq54hat98642dq7c&n=s8762hk5dt986cq63&e=sajth7dak42cakjt7]399|300[/hv]

 

My special system for 1H openers and a 2/1 GF response ( and contains an "idiotic" 2S!-ask ):

 

1H - 2C!

2H! ( minimum opener, may have 4 cards ♠ ) - 2S! ( asks )

??

... 2NT = no 4s

... 3C = 4 5 3 1

... 3D = 4 5 1 3

... 3H = 4 6+, ergo not many cards in the minors

... 3S = 4 5 2 2

 

After:

3H - 3NT

[the hog]

My special system for 1H openers and a 2/1 GF response ( and contains an "idiotic" 2S!-ask ):

 

1H - 2C!

2H! ( minimum opener, may have 4 cards ♠ ) - 2S! ( asks )

??

... 2NT = no 4s

... 3C = 4 5 3 1

... 3D = 4 5 1 3

... 3H = 4 6+

... 3S = 4 5 2 2

 

After:

3H - 3NT

 

This is not idiotic, Don. This is a specialised relay designed to find out more. Btw how can your parner show 4Ds in your structure.?

Surely after

1H 2C

you would rebid 2H with Ax AKQJxx xxxx x

or similar.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Surely after:

1H 2C

you would rebid 2H with Ax AKQJxx xxxx x

or similar.

2H! ( minimum ) - 2S! ( asks )

2NT! ( no 4s ) - 3D ( natural )

??

.. Now Opener can either show extra Ht length ( 3H ) or 4+ card Diam support ( 3D ).

With that stellar Ht suit, one might go with 3H, but the Ht suit will be good for discards with Diam as trump:

4D

[Cyberyeti]

Yes and you need three rounds of Ds to stand up.and the third club not to be overruffed. A better slam is actually 6C, simply because you have the AKJT. It is unfortunate that clubs don't break 4-4. Even then you can make 6C provided you don't get a H lead and provided you cash the AK and guess to play low on the third C.

The op is delusional and is posting nonsense in a futile attempt to show how clever he thinks he is.

6♠ is I think better than 6♣, it will also make if the Q♣ drops singleton or doubleton if a diamond is not led. It's not practical to bid, and it's unfortunate that 6N will almost certainly get the required squeeze broken up due to the entry position. 6♣ I don't think is biddable either, but is also not bad, given that a heart lead is unlikely if they're splitting and barring that, ♣98x will see you home too.

 

There are also positions where one hand is 5134 and 6♣ goes off on a spade ruff or heart trump promotion depending on who had Q♣ but 6♠ makes.

 

6♠ is around 50% with double dummy defence by my estimation, 6♣ is not close to that double dummy (on a heart lead you need clubs 4-4 and no ruff), and not that close in practice.

[aguahombre]

IMO, this thread went south when OP claimed 2/1 was "almost" game force, and then people contributed their special treatments which require 2/1 to be game force.

 

With the given agreements, it is probably best if responder just takes the bull by the horns and blasts to 6NT after first hoping something informative might happen when he bids 2C.

[CSGibson]

In what circumstances is the 2/1 not game forcing? If it's only when rebidding the minor suit (after opener has failed to force) then I think 2N is an obvious rebid instead of 2♠. If 2N would be non-forcing, I'd go with 3♦. Having been dropped in this auction, I'd probably bid 5N as choice of slams, just to give an opportunity for partner to bid 6♣ with Qx or something.

[rmnka447]

If by 2/1 almost game forcing you mean 2/1 game forcing except when responder rebids the 2/1 suit, then I vote for 3 ♦ after the 2 ♥ rebid.

 

Every time 2/1 responder bids a new suit, it shows added values for responder's hand.

 

So 3 ♦ is a very descriptive bid. Additionally, it may bring a ♦ fit to light.

[rhm]

6♠ is actually pretty good, trump lead, win 10, 3 rounds of diamonds, AK♣ and ruff one low, ace of hearts and if this stands up you have 8 tricks in the bag and can cross ruff the AKQJ of trumps.

 

It could easily be no play with pretty much the same auction though with other slams solid.

I would bet all my money when the bidding starts that way that 6♠ is a better contract than 6NT if opener shows 2 key cards and the ♠Q.

It is not like 6NT is going to run away should opener deny those key cards. Continue with 4NT over 3♠ to find out.

 

1♥-2♣

2♠-3♠

4NT-5♠

5NT-6♠ (no ♣Q, no red suit king)

Pass

 

The problem for me is how to stay out of 7♠ at IMPs, because when 6NT makes, 7♠ is probably on too. (unless spades break 5-1)

At pairs I would not risk 7♠, since 6♠+1 beats 6NT.

 

I like 2♠ (assuming East holds ♠AJT), but then I like creative thinkers at this game.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[the hog]

"I like 2♠ (assuming East holds ♠AJT), but then I like creative thinkers at this game."

 

Does that mean those who can't bid?

[y66]

I like 2♠ (assuming East holds ♠AJT), but then I like creative thinkers at this game.

Rainer Herrmann

I prefer to have at least ♠KQ9x when bidding 2♠ on that assumption.

[stansllee]

I would bet all my money when the bidding starts that way that 6♠ is a better contract than 6NT if opener shows 2 key cards and the ♠Q.

It is not like 6NT is going to run away should opener deny those key cards. Continue with 4NT over 3♠ to find out.

 

1♥-2♣

2♠-3♠

4NT-5♠

5NT-6♠ (no ♣Q, no red suit king)

Pass

 

The problem for me is how to stay out of 7♠ at IMPs, because when 6NT makes, 7♠ is probably on too. (unless spades break 5-1)

At pairs I would not risk 7♠, since 6♠+1 beats 6NT.

 

I like 2♠ (assuming East holds ♠AJT), but then I like creative thinkers at this game.

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

Thank you, you and I are few and rare species！ My real holding is ♠A107, my right hand oppo ♠J862.

[the hog]

Thank you, you and I are few and rare species！ My real holding is ♠A107, my right hand oppo ♠J862.

 

Not really a rare species, Stan. There are a lot of players, not just on BBO who cannot bid.

[rhm]

Not really a rare species, Stan. There are a lot of players, not just on BBO who cannot bid.

And of course "the hog" is the final authority to decide who can and who can not

 

Rainer Herrmann

[han]

I don't know the system, and even though I don't like 2S very much, I think that 3D is a far worse call. It simply takes up too much room. If partner rebids 3NT you know exactly nothing about his hand. I prefer 2NT (assuming that it is forcing in this system). With a hand as strong as the one given we should give partner as much room as possible, so I guess that's a good case for bidding 2S.

 

Hog, I've told you before, don't comment on play issues!

[stansllee]

And of course "the hog" is the final authority to decide who can and who can not

 

Rainer Herrmann

 

Hi Rainer,

 

"the hog" has been at the helm of BBO Discussion Forums for more than 9 years, and has gained an Excellent reputation for his skill in decide who's post is nonsense and which bid is idiotic. He was particularly well known to play good bridge by mouth. So we'd better not mess with him.

 

When I reveal all hands, "the hog" hd questioned immediately with his killing ♦ opening lead and ask me to play my 6♠, but only few second he took down his post and started to claim that 6♣ is actually a better contract....

 

Now Rainer, against "the hog" killing defense, would you please help me to find a line to bring the contract home with the real 4 hands as bellow, Cos in real life, when i play in 6♠ they lead a club to pick up the suit for me, my 13 tricks scoring is just trivial!

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s93hqj3dj53c98542&w=skq54hat98642dq7c&n=sj862hk5dt986cq76&e=sat7h7dak42cakjt3]399|300[/hv]

 

The bidding contains an "idiotic" 2♠:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ - 2♠

3♠ - 5♠

6♠

 

FYI, at the other table, my oppo did play in 6♣ exactly as per "the hog" suggest, and hd received the TRUMP lead! And still went one off for hundred dollars. Their bidding went:

 

1♥ - 2♣

2♥ - 3♦

3♠ - 6♣

 

Best Regards

 

Stan Lee

 

Sydney Australia

[Cyberyeti]

The line I proposed still works on the actual layout.

 

Q♦

♦AK

♣AK+ruff

♥A and ruff

 

and your last 4 tricks are ruffs with the Q, 10, K, A.

[stansllee]

The line I proposed still works on the actual layout.

 

Q♦

♦AK

♣AK+ruff

♥A and ruff

 

and your last 4 tricks are ruffs with the Q, 10, K, A.

 

So even "the hog" raise up his ♠9, when you play your last ♦, trying trump-promotion, can only stop you to score the overtricks! That's might be the reason why he took down his post in a second, he is clever enough to work out the contract is cold in such a short time!

[han]

At the helm, I love it. I wrote a post involving somebody making a pig's ear of it and the rest stealing acorns from a pig, but I decided against it.

[the hog]

Stan, you really are a piece of work. You post a hand to show how clever you are; you lie about it by adding an extra knave - a crucial card in a cross ruff. You then claim 7 is an excellent contract. when it is not clear 6 is not cold. (As I said try it if the third D is ruffed). When your 2S master bid comes under almost universal criticism, you desperately try to defend yourself. The ONLY poster who liked 2S was Rainer, who is known for his idiosyncratic views. (Ok 2/1 agreed with 2S, but he plays it as a relay).

 

You still have not shown how you would find a 4-4 D fit if it existed. Perhaps in your limited world partner will always rebid 2D with 4, even with Kx AKQTxx xxxx x

 

Then you come out with this line:

" Cos in real life, when i play in 6♠ they lead a club to pick up the suit for me"

This is the mos fatuous comment I have read on BBO for some time. What are you going to do, turn to your opponent and say "Please lead the club"?

Despite the fact that you are from Sydney, (or perhaps because of it), it also appears that English is not your native language. I suggest you learn to read what I [posted. Some advice for you: take this hand the NSWBA and ask Klinger, Gill or Nagy for advice. Then sign up for some lessons;there are some very good teachers in NSW.

[the hog]

I don't know the system, and even though I don't like 2S very much, I think that 3D is a far worse call. It simply takes up too much room. If partner rebids 3NT you know exactly nothing about his hand. I prefer 2NT (assuming that it is forcing in this system). With a hand as strong as the one given we should give partner as much room as possible, so I guess that's a good case for bidding 2S.

 

Hog, I've told you before, don't comment on play issues!

 

The op said 2/1 is almost gf, so the assumption is that 2NT is now nf. Given that do you still prefer 2S to 3D? You will NEVER find a 4-4 D fit if you have one. The convoluted logic of the op seems to suggest that he would always bid 2D over 2C with a 4 card D suit. There are many hands with good Hs and poor ♦s where you would not do this, of course.

[MrAce]

Hog, bro why do you insist on with this attitude ? You are calling the guy names and all. You said your opinion so did he, why do you have to be this way ? Bro, I mean you are a veteran poster in BBF by now and you should know better than this already imo.

 

And you have double standarts too. You called names to Justin in the past (Jlackoflogic for example) but now you upvote and applause his posts. What is this guy supposed to do ? To win USA team trials or play in Bermuda Bowl to gain your respect ? Why can't you show him at least the minimum level of respect that everyone deserves ?

 

If Justin or Fred or Gnasher said that they would bid 2♠ with this hand, you wouldn't tell them any of the things you did for this guy, would you ?

 

Not only to him, but to those who agrees him too !

 

The ONLY poster who liked 2S was Rainer, who is known for his idiosyncratic views.

[lalldonn]

Even though there is no reason to be so rude about it, he is right that there are a lot of players on BBO who can't bid. I even met one once who thought 1♣ p 1♥ p, 1♠ p 4♣ was natural!

[lalldonn]

As for the original hand, I don't particularly understand 2♠ myself. If 2NT is forcing it seems obvious. If not then I'm much more comfortable bidding out my shape with 3♦, especially with good suits in a good hand. I don't understand the worry of partner bidding 3NT over this. We can just bid 5NT and play either 6♣ or 6NT, or 6♠ if you think that might be a good contract (or if we open so light that we think it's right, we can invite slam with 4NT instead). Bidding 2♠ seems to add unnecessary complications, since we might belong in diamonds and we might have to escape from spades after partner raises.

[han]

I never play this system or bid 2S on 3-card suits here, but if 2NT is non-forcing and 3C is non-forcing, I guess you'd have to fake a 2S bid sometimes. For example with AQx Qx xx AQJxxx you'd pretty much have to bid 2S. If partner knows that 2S is sometimes not a real suit, it's not such a big lie on this hand.

 

3D often forces partner to make a non-descript bid such as 3S or 3NT. With a hand as strong as ours, I think we should give partner the room to describe his hand, so given the system I like 2S better than 3D. Bidding 3D in case partner has somehow chosen to hide a 4-card diamond suit seems a pretty small target.

 

Again, I would prefer to bid 2NT forcing, but I believe you if you say that in "2/1 almost GF" this is not an option.