Fourth-suit forcing auction

[lmilne]

[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1dp1hp2cp2sp2np3hp3s]133|100[/hv]

 

2♠ was artificial and forcing to game.

 

Is 3♠:

a) A cue for hearts?

b) Doubt about strain, i.e. singleton heart and a dubious spade stopper, something like Qxx x AKxxx Kxxx?

c) Something else?

 

If it matters, 3♥ over 2♣ would've been natural and forcing, so the suit-setting heart hands aren't in this auction any more.

[mcphee]

I would think it showed 3S and a stiff H.

[mich-b]

b) Doubt about strain, i.e. singleton heart and a dubious spade stopper , or no ♠ stopper.

[aguahombre]

If it matters, 3♥ over 2♣ would've been natural and forcing, so the suit-setting heart hands aren't in this auction any more.

It matters. It means your partnership has no way of inviting game with long hearts after 1D-1H-2C, and must use an immediate 2H over the opening 1m for that purpose.

 

It also means your 3H bid iself must mean something special we haven't been told about, since it doesn't set hearts as trump and you didn't use 3H over 2C.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I agree with Aqua....

Since you have TWO forcing ways to bid 3H ( not that I agree ) , one must be stronger than the other.

I assume that the 3H-jump is stronger, setting trumps, and demads cue bids.

 

So in your given auction, 3S is not a cue, but (b).

[pooltuna]

I would think it showed 3S and a stiff H.

 

 

PLUS 1

[lmilne]

It matters. It means your partnership has no way of inviting game with long hearts after 1D-1H-2C, and must use an immediate 2H over the opening 1m for that purpose.

 

It also means your 3H bid iself must mean something special we haven't been told about, since it doesn't set hearts as trump and you didn't use 3H over 2C.

 

Yes, precisely. We split the ranges of 1m-2M and 1m-1M-?-2M. A jump to 3H would've set suit and shown good hearts.

 

I don't think anyone would play this auction "sets hearts" regardless, would they?

[aguahombre]

I don't think anyone would play this auction "sets hearts" regardless, would they?

If you are referring to the auction in the original post, then yes they would. Fourth suit forcing followed by rebidding of the heart suit would be the exact sequence for us. We don't have 1m-2H as invitational (it is something else); a jump rebid to 3H can be passed; and that leaves the 4SF sequence to set hearts and show slammish intent. But, that is off-topic for your given conditions ---merely informational.

[gszes]

If p cared about spade length they could easily have bid 3s

vs 3h. P is either making a slam try (which we will find

out later) or they are concerned about 3n since they have

a minor suit fit.

 

IMO 3s should be used here to show a single stop in spades.

Ax(x) Kx(x) QJx. That way we can save 3n to show at least 2

stops in spades and at least remove doubt from p about 3n

being a viable place vs the minors.

[lmilne]

If you are referring to the auction in the original post, then yes they would. Fourth suit forcing followed by rebidding of the heart suit would be the exact sequence for us. We don't have 1m-2H as invitational (it is something else); a jump rebid to 3H can be passed; and that leaves the 4SF sequence to set hearts and show slammish intent. But, that is off-topic for your given conditions ---merely informational.

 

Just curious, what do you do with random hands with 6 hearts where you are still not sure about strain?

[aguahombre]

Just curious, what do you do with random hands with 6 hearts where you are still not sure about strain?

4SF is best treated as game forcing, not random hand with 6 hearts. So, you are referring to merely game forcing hands with six hearts or mildly slammish hands with 6 hearts which didn't want to single-handedly set hearts as trump. Those would pass 3NT after opener has suggested a minimum opening bid with 3-1-(5-4) shape. They would not have bid 3D over 2NT.

[nigel_k]

I think hearts are trumps unless opener rebids 3NT over 3♥. So 3♠ is a cue bid.

[JLOGIC]

Below 3N cuebids where a fit is not specifically established are primarily about strain unless otherwise clarified later. This is no exception to that rule, in fact it is the perfect example of why the rule exists. If you have 2 hearts you will obviously play hearts, and if you have 2 spade stoppers and a stiff small heart you will obviously bid 3N. But if you have something like 1 spade stopper and a stiff heart, esp a stiff heart honor, you will want to bid 3S and leave it to partner, since the right game will depend largely on what his spade and heart holdings are (if he has xx spades and KJT987 of hearts he will obv bid 4H, but sometimes he has less robust heart spots and is just trying to get to a 6-2 heart fit).

 

So, definitely B, not close.

[P_Marlowe]

3S is a cue, 3H basically set trumps, opener can bid 3NT, as a suggestion to play,

but that is it.

 

Ok - I did not read the comment, that a direct 3H instead of the slower route would

also be natural / forcing.

 

Now you need to decide, which way showes a broken suit, that needs some support and a

selfsufficient suit, if I read your comment right, that the slower route showes the

weaker suit.

In this case, I guess 3S showes a half stopper, and at most a single heart.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe