Defence Against Strong Club Systems

[Phil]

Whatever you decide to play, one level bids need to be lead directing. You are getting an advantage with RHO opening 1♣ instead of 1N, or 2N, or something else.

 

I also play CRASH (x, 1N and 2♣) and I like it a lot, as long as partner knows how to stir the pot with the advances. There's still confusion and preemption in my view, even against good pairs, and those that think they can sit down and say "Meckwell Lite"? "Sure", and cope with everything.

 

Bids of 2♦ and higher are that suit or the next higher. Its something I've played for a few years now and it seems to create problems, even though you lose a little bounce like you do with multi.

[nige1]

Amsbury used jump overcalls here 20y ago:

2S: WJO. If X, sit.

or 3-suiter w/o spades. If X, SOS red.

or touching 5-5. If X, bid lower.

2H,2D,2C similar.

Add ParadoX responses - this fit or partner

corrects to an implied fit, and it becomes formidable.

Amsbury seems OK except for the 3-suiter option (3-suiters are usually good defensively).

 

My favourite is:

 

1N = ♠ + Minor.

2N = ♥ + Another.

3N OR _X = Minors.

Other bids = Nat

[Statto]

Who cares? The system is crap. Simple is by far the most effective, and I know this from years of playing a big club system. Ask big clubbers what they love to play against and it is silly stuff like Truscott or Crash etc.

That's interesting, as Truscott was recommended to me very recently (well, about a year ago) by someone who has just achieved national selection. Maybe it depends on the defences against the defences. What is your defence against Truscott?

[Statto]

The likelihood is therefore greater that the 1♣ opener has 16-19 HCP balanced

FYP B-). We play 1♣...1NT as 16-19 balanced, and when partner opens 1♣ and I bid 1♦, it seems to be almost inevitable that partner's next bid will be 1NT, I would guess 4 times in 5.

[olien]

If you want a mix of natural and artificiality over an opponents strong club, you might consider a defence that I've heard called 'psycho-suction' where a suit bid shows either the suit you're bidding or the next two suits and notrump bids show non-touching suits. That being said, I am also a fan of bidding naturally and having partner be able to freely raise my suit knowing that its a real suit. Meckwell play X for the majors and notrump for the minors over a strong club and they are clearly not afraid of complexity, so if its good enough for them, its good enough for me.

[paulg]

John Armstrong, who was in Britain's best strong club pair, always said that any one-level overcall that did not show spades was a waste of time :)

[32519]

The disadvantage of a 1♣ opening is that you havent shown a suit yet. Good opponents can exploit that. Good opponents with the right ammunition will bid aggressively and intelligently to try to foul up your communications.

 

The best strategy when the opponents enter the auction after a 1♣ opening is to ignore the interference as much as possible. Any bidding the opponents do in an attempt to interfere can come back to haunt them when the strong clubber becomes declarer. The information conveyed by the opponents often helps declarer solve otherwise difficult problems.

 

It is for this very reason that I like to place some sort of minimum requirement before interfering over 1♣. If my interference is made on a ridiculously low HCP range, the probability increases that the partner of the 1 clubber has values to continue with a meaningful auction. Depending on the form of the interference, the 1 clubbers partner can X, XX or bid to show 5-8 HCP or 8+ depending on your agreements/bidding style.

 

Three defensive systems mentioned in this thread are listed below in no order of preference:

 

1. Mathe

Very simple: X = 4-4 in the majors, 1NT = 4-4 in the minors. Higher level of NT shows more distributional hands.

2. CRASH (Colour / Rank / Shape)

Different variations exist. One version: X = 2-suits of the same colour, 1D = 2-suits of the same rank, 1NT = 2-suits of the same shape. Bids of 1H, 1S, 2C and 2D show single suited hands.

3. Truscott

Different variations exist. One version: Jump overcall = natural. A simple overcall = suit bid plus the next higher ranking suit. Direct double = the two non-touching suit combinations i.e. ♣ + ♥. 1NT shows the other two non-touching suits i.e. ♦ + ♠. After 1♣-Pass-1♦-X now shows ♦ + ♠. 1NT now shows ♣ + ♥.

 

Pass can be strong or weak. When strong, you are guaranteed a second bite at the apple as the 1♣ bidders partner is forced to respond.

 

Simplicity is favoured as being the most effective.

 

JLogic said:

I think all of the fancy defenses are misguided. Almost every good pair I have played against (and I've played strong club in all of my regular partnerships) have played X=majors NT=minors. Personally, I think minors is a pretty stupid hand type to show. I like X=majors and 1NT=more majors, like 5-5. Joe likes X=majors, NT=minors 2D=5-5+ majors, but I would much rather have a natural 2D than a 1NT for the minors bid. Minors is the hand type where we're least likely to declare, and it doesn't hurt their bidding much when you bid 1NT showing 2 known suits, they now have 2 cuebids plus they can double and do something later, etc. Even when I am 5-5 in M+m, I rarely desire to show my other suit, it will just help them too much if they declare knowing 10 of my cards, and if my minor is unknown it will be hard for partner to preempt immediately and effective, and it is not that likely we need to bid 5m and won't be able to do so otherwise.

Just because they play strong club doesn't mean you're about to get a zero/lose 13 imps, you don't have to go psycho.

Suction in particular which I played a lot of when I was younger was very ineffective imo and bad.

 

This thread has a lot of support for natural overcalls. In particular I like very much what Mycroft said:

I've said frequently that my keys to a successful defence of a strong club is to get to 2 or 3 of a fit by the time it gets around to opener's second bid - and then get out. In order to get to that fit, I dislike any call that doesn't show a real suit.

 

I also very much like what sfi said:

Having played a variety of strong club systems over the years, I don't much care what your defence is - it's not going to mess us up a great deal at the one and two level. What does cause strong club systems problems are natural jumps to the three level, so stretch to do that on hands that are at all suitable. Be aware that the strong club pair also knows that this is a weakness in their system and may shrug and accept whatever penalty you offer. So if you try it too much, you might regret it from time to time. On balance, you will come out ahead unless you start doing it on really unsuitable hands.

[PrecisionL]

Gee, now everyone will be bidding like rabbits on speed against our 1 club opening :wub:

 

I guess I will join the crowd, from our system notes:

IX. Strong 1 Club Opening, We Interfere with Bugatti in direct seat:

 

(1♣): 1♦ > 1♥, 1♥ > 1♠, 1♠ = 1444, 1NT = 5m/55M, 2m = DONT, 2M = Natural, 2NT = 5-5

 

Strong Club Defense over (1♣) - P – (1♦) ?

 

Mathe

: 1

♥

Natural, good suit

1

♠

Natural, good suit

1NT Takeout for the minors

X Takeout for the Majors

[shevek]

As a strong clubber, I'm almost ashamed to admit that we do better when they interfere over our 16+ 1♣ than when they pass throughout. Strong club is quite rare in Sydney. People don't often get to trot out their half-baked defense that they don't understand. If they carry round Suction or Twerb, they can't wait to distort to give their toy an airing. Also, we have a feel for these auctions while they don't.

Our last 2300 went something like

 

1♣ - (no) - 1♦ - (3♣)

no - (4♠) - X - (no)

 

3♣ showed diamonds or the majors, 4♠ was correctable, but not seen that way.

They has a 12-card diamond fit.

[mgoetze]

People don't often get to trot out their half-baked defense that they don't understand.

Indeed. On the other extreme to what you just posted, I've seen

 

1♣-(1♦)-no-(1♠)

 

1♦ was CRASH, majors or minors.

The lady bidding 1♠ had 5-5 in the black suits.

[the hog]

Gee, now everyone will be bidding like rabbits on speed against our 1 club opening :wub:

 

I guess I will join the crowd, from our system notes:

IX. Strong 1 Club Opening, We Interfere with Bugatti in direct seat:

 

(1♣): 1♦ > 1♥, 1♥ > 1♠, 1♠ = 1444, 1NT = 5m/55M, 2m = DONT, 2M = Natural, 2NT = 5-5

 

Strong Club Defense over (1♣) - P – (1♦) ?

 

Mathe

: 1

♥

Natural, good suit

1

♠

Natural, good suit

1NT Takeout for the minors

X Takeout for the Majors

 

PLEASE, pretty please play this against me when I am playing Moscito. Transfer defences are awful and give the bic clubbers many extra options.

 

Statto, did your "nationally selected" player ever play a big club system? I bet not.

[Free]

It depends largely on your opponents' response structure. If they show HCP (1♦ = 0-6, 1♥ = 7-8,...), and keep doing this in competition, then it pays off to interfere a lot. I know many pairs that play this way, one of the most funny auctions was p-1♣-2♣*-3♠-p-4♥-p-... (*=DONT) where 3♠ showed something like 15 HCP any distribution. I really had a hard time not to start laughing because we were V and I had only 1HCP!

 

Against decent players it doesn't pay off to interfere too wildly on flat hands. You'll run into a hammer way too often and many times they land in a good contract and know more about the defenders' hands than other tables.

[PrecisionL]

PLEASE, pretty please play this against me when I am playing Moscito. Transfer defences are awful and give the bic clubbers many extra options.

 

OK, for $?

[dake50]

Aside, do y'all play the same obstruct/compete

scheme over a nefarious 1D? eg. Precision 1D as catchall.

Seems that has much to gain even with game possible cases to attend.

Second

After (1C) P (1D(neg)) ??

Partner's direct seat pass over 1C changes what shapes he can have left.

Scheme to obstruct/compete using that inference?

Or has partner's no-direct-action decided our side plays tame?

[Phil]

For the last umpteen years, I have heard 'trust me, natural is better', but color me a non-believer. Of course, if you buy me a Starbucks, I'll listen to your sermon :)

 

No one has a problem with jacking around a 1N opening with Woolsey, and a lot of players think that the 2♦ multi overcall is what creates the most havoc in strong NT bidding. So over a strong club, where opener can have anywhere from a balanced 16 to a variety of 2♣ openers, this is the most fertile ground for interference, but a 1N opening is very limited is range and shape, so the opportunities for effective interference are limited.

 

Maybe this isn't true anymore since everyone and their dog play woolsey or multi-landy, and effective counter-measures have been created, but it does create a lot of issues. Multi bidders trade preemption for sowing confusion. Sure, there's inexperienced pairs that play crash and return with -2300 but if you are trying to make an argument 'natural is better', this is a weak point.

 

I suppose if you wanted to make better definitions about two suiters, this gives responder more opportunity to preempt, which is the biggest drawback to anything like suction or Crash.

 

In a recent long match, we had an auction that started similarly to: (1♣) - 2♥* - (dbl)# - pass**, which created some problems. Opener had Hxx of hearts, but a pretty good offensive and couldn't leave it in. Responder didn't know if a subsequent 3♥ call was a cue bid or natural.

 

* - hearts or spades

# - cards

** - pass or correct

[straube]

I think that at very low levels (dbl, 1D) that unnatural may be better...something like CRASH. These bids take up little space so they ought to be reserved for hands that don't have a strong preference. The value is when advancer is able to use this information to compete at the 2-level.

 

At medium levels (1H, 1S) I think that natural is better. 1H doesn't take up any room, but 1S takes a step. The primary benefit (again) is that responder can take up bidding room with a raise.

 

At the 2-level, sowing confusion has worked against us (we play a strong club). Like 1C (2C) =clubs or something else. Very hard to deal with 2-way bids. We aren't in a GF yet, haven't shown a suit, and have no cue bid. It's true that advancer seldom can't advance, but the work has already been done.

 

Something I personally find annoying is when the opponents pass and then bid later after we've established a relay auction. We've had the wheels come off. OTOH, I can't really recommend this strategy, because our relays may be too high to want to come in later.

[32519]

Something I personally find annoying is when the opponents pass and then bid later after we've established a relay auction. We've had the wheels come off. OTOH, I can't really recommend this strategy, because our relays may be too high to want to come in later.

 

How does the later opponent intervention interfere with the relay auction? Sure it eats up bidding space, but you have two extra bids available after the intervention: Pass and Double.

[JLOGIC]

No one has a problem with jacking around a 1N opening with Woolsey, and a lot of players think that the 2♦ multi overcall is what creates the most havoc in strong NT bidding.

 

lol, funny because this is another great example of a convention people overuse way too much and go for numbers. Think about it, if the opponents play one of the two common methods of dealing with multi over your NT, which is double with stayman hands to create a force, then you are in penalty X mode, then effectively they can make both a penalty X and a takeout double of your 2 of a major overcall. As opposed to if you could just bid 2M, they would no longer have a penalty X and would usually bid 3N (or if they passed, often they would hear all pass). You give them the best of both worlds and become much more exposed, since your downside is much greater you should obviously logically be overcalling SOUNDER because you have to bid 2D rahter than 2M. On top of that, your upside is lower since you are not showing your suit immediately which is inferior in competitive auctions obviously. I honestly think of woolsey vs NT and suction vs strong club as 2 examples of bids that opponents make retardedly vs me very often and just go for numbers. Woolsey 2D must be the worst, it's so easy to just double then double (or double then pass and let partner double). I did not know there was a group of people who thought that the "2d bid creates the most havoc in strong NT bidding" but that makes sense.

 

It is just like a multi 2D opening, you should LOSE when you are opening the convention compared to opening a weak 2, but you should gain enough by freeing up both 2M openings vs having some other meaning for 2D that you gain.

 

In reality, people thinking multi 2D, or multi over their NT being a winning convention on its own cannot logically follow unless the opponents are so unfamiliar/incompetent at defending against it compared to their competency level of defending vs natural bidding that you are gaining a ton just based on that. So, no doubt these local wizards who do well beating up on fish have gotten most of their experience doing just that, and thus conventions where the opponents don't know how to defend and have accidents have a lot of value. But if you think logically about specifically woolsey 2D, I think you would realize it's a horrible example since it uses up no bidding room and the opponents can just play transfer lebensohl and double for stayman/penalty X hands, and pass then double with light takeouts, etc. And it's really not a hard bid to defend against, and you will pre-alert it in the ACBL so they will likely discuss their defense even if they are bad players.

 

Similarly, having a philosophy of "jacking around all the time" COMBINED with playing two suited overcalls over a strong club is just a complete disaster if the opponents know what to do when you bid against their strong club. Playing this way your vig is really going to be gaining from confusing them and them having accidents. And, incidentally, these players are also often not smart enough to take full advantage of the information you give them in the auction when they declare.

 

I mean, seriously, think about an auction like 1C* (strong) 1D(suction) 2D (natural GF) 3H (p/c). This auction is a pretty good auction for suction, luckily advancer had a big enough fit in 2 possible suits to preempt to the 3 level immediately and the pressure is on. This auction has gone well for suction, but 1C 1H 2C 3H would have been much better. Why is that? Because assuming I play the hand, I know a ton about responders hand. 3H really says "I want to play 3H if you have hearts, or at least 3S, or at least 4D". He's probably got 4 hearts and 5 clubs or 4 hearts and 4 spades at least, and I really know even more than that (many 4432 hands would just bid 2S not 3H for instance, etc). He might have 5 hearts, but if he does I know he doesn't have 5 clubs, with 5-5 he would bid 4C at least. If he had 5 hearts, I would bet a lot on him being 4522 exactly. Maybe they will lead a heart at trick one and I will get the heart count, and play double dummy and get written up cuz I played for 4522 at trick one. Of course 4522 might just bid 2S, maybe I'll play him for good spades and bad hearts as well. And if the overcaller has spades and clubs, the auction has gone well for him, his partner was able to preempt early in the auction, nice, but I am going to be able to pick off the play easily, esp if I get to 4H.

 

Basically, you are simply gambling a ton that you ***** them in the auction, because they will often know your shape. And what is the best way to ***** them? It's either to preempt to a high level with your first bid, OR TO MAKE A BID THAT ENABLES PARTNER TO PREEMPT TO A HIGH LEVEL. If opener has to make his first bid at a high level, that's great. But wait, playing these "either/or" bids not only means that the pass or correct bids give a way a ton of info about the shape, it also severely hampers your partners ability to preempt to a high level which is one of the main ways of achieving your dream of ***** them in the auction! I see you play crash, so over 2 suits of the same rank for instance, for your partner to preempt aggressively he needs a good fit in both a minor and a major, otherwise he has to be more cautious. If you could have just shown the majors, your partner would be free to jump immediately. Also, think about this stupid style of bidding super aggressively to begin with. What happens? Oh, partner can't really preempt THAT aggressively, even with 2 fits in possible suits, you might be 4-4 or have a 4 card suit overcall or something stupid. Better be cautious. Oh you had a real 5/5 this time? Too bad, unlucky! The get in every time style is very poor in that respect, it just runs counter to your goal of getting in their auctions a lot. If responder makes a GF bid and the next guy cant jump to at least the 3 level, their auction isn't hurt too much. They have forcing passes, cuebids, they are in a GF and can bid suits. Oh, yeah, they can double you too.

 

Your GOAL when you overcall over a strong club should be:

 

--Always to possibly play it. You are bidding to try and play the hand. This means a making partial or game, or obviously finding a good save.

 

If you DON'T play it your goal should be to:

 

-- Distruct their auction effectively, while not giving them too much info in the play if you fail at that goal (as you almost always will unless you find a big fit.

 

The most likely way to disrupt their auction effectively is to preempt them early. The best ways to do this are:

 

1) Overcall with a preempt obv, this hurts their auction immediately. Even something like 2S. Well, to overcall soemthing at the 2 level, you're much mroe likely to have a 1 suiter. One suiters have more safety for less. And no, artificial 2 bids are not good. For instance multi 2D overcall would be hopeless, you take away you biggest advantage by allowing LHO to double, to show some cards and then make another bid, he can make 2 bids at the 2 level often. You must overcall in a suit that you might have even if its a 2 suited bid (spades and a minor could work, psycho suction is much superior to suction because youre bidding your possible suit, etc).

 

2) Overcall at the 1 level, enabling partner to at least raise, but hopefully to make a big jump immediately if you hit a big fit. Even if you have a spade and club 2 suiter, overcalling spades is not that bad, if you're going to make a big splash it's probably in spades and if you have a save or a make somewhere you're unlikely to win in clubs, spades is far more important (goign to my theory that majors is the only important 2 suiter over 1C). Yes, obviously some bid that showed both suits exactly would be better. But I would submit that if I have 5 spades and 5 clubs and my option is to DOUBLE as a crash bid, or bid 1S, 1S is far better. 1S at least enables partner to jump raise if he has a good fit whereas crash means he has to have a good fit in 2 suits. It also is far more preemptive than X or 1D, it's funny that crashers want to disrupt and 2 of their 3 bids are X and 1D, those are much easier for strong clubbers to deal with.

 

Also it's worth noting that even 1S is a pretty effective preempt even if your partner can just raise to 2S.

 

All of these things argue for natural bids, not either/or bids and not 2 suited bids, and that is just on top of the main point that we do not want to tell them so much about shape every single time when we are unlikely to declare the hand! They also argue for not bidding super aggro and just bidding normally at the 1 level, because WHEN you bid, you want your partner to be able to bid very aggressively. You can argue whether you should be preempting aggressively, this is more random and has a lot more upside but you will just get doubled a lot. IMO this is the same thing, people just preempt too much. Yes maybe novice strong clubbers don't know what to do over 1C 3S X(GF no bid) p ? with xxx AJx AKJx Axx but any good player is just going to pass and let you play it, so good luck to you if you have a retarded hand. Yes, 3S is a very effective preempt, but if you are bidding it too often they can counter it by just defending 3S X when they have game going points and no super long suit. And that is a common battle these days. But that is a totally different argument about best style for preempting over a strong club, it's way different than best methods and style on 1 level bids imo.

 

Also Remember that even overcalling a preempt like 2S with 6 spades gives them far less info about the shape than 2 suited bids.

 

This post is going on and on, but I would say that you should devise your system/methods for playing against people who are competent. Even if they are incompetent, they might have no idea what they're doing in their uncontested auctions anyways that you are risking a lot to gain not a ton. I admit there is a class of players who knows their auctions very well if you don't bid, but has very poor judgement in competitive auctions. For instance, I used to play against some relay guys and I would always bid, because they were hopeless at bridge but they knew their relays 100 %. But that is just exploiting their particular weaknesses, it should not be your general strategy. When people play vs meckwell, they often freak out and think they're getting fixed or something if they let them have an uncontested 1C auction. That couldn't be farther from the truth, yes they are in a +EV spot vs natural, but sometimes natural works better, usually it doesn't matter at all it's just a normal whatever contract. Let's say 90 % of the time it doesn't matter what system you play in an uncontested auction, you're just going to get to the same spot. In those auctions, do I want to risk going for a number for no reason, or even worse, do I want to tell meckwell a ton about the shape and let them pick me clean in the play? And for what gain, because I'm going to screw meckwell really hard by overcalling 1D CRASH and then my partner can bust out 3D, pass or correct? What percentage of the time do you think that stops natures course of them playing a routine game or something? It is just a really bad strategy and this conventional wisdom comes out of some fear of strong clubbers having a strong club auction like you will always get burned, combined with how inept bad strong clubbers are at dealing with competition, combined with people not considering the implications of the play after these auctions, only the bidding.

[JLOGIC]

double post

[JLOGIC]

 

 

 

I suppose if you wanted to make better definitions about two suiters, this gives responder more opportunity to preempt, which is the biggest drawback to anything like suction or Crash.

 

This is true, there is a correlation between people who play these toys and how often they want to bid over a strong club, but they don't have to be. Kind of like how people who play odd/even in USA falsecard less often than people who play ud or std discards...that does not mean there is a flaw with o/e. Still, it is a broken system to have either or 2 suiters, and even if you use those bids cautiously, you have now lost your 1D overcall which would be potentially useful if partner could jump in diamonds (and he'd just need like 4 diamonds to do so, nothing crazy). You could convince me to play that X and 1N show 2 suiters that are specific...Oh wait thats what X majors NT minors is!

 

2H overcall showing spades or hearts is different, that is a preempt that is with a ONE suiter not a 2 suiter, where you are bidding one of your suits (eg doubling and forcing overcaller to bid again is not possible). That is very tough to defend against and is possibly very good NV. I rememebr townsend and gold going 4 off in 2H vs me in a pair game when we couldn't make anything and they had spades though. A convention like that is highly random but obv that doesn't make it bad.

 

FWIW that type of bid AS AN OPENER is banned at even the highest level in the WBF I think, because it is so tough to defend against. If you wanted to play it NV I would say that it could be fine, but again it's following what seems theoretically logical, it's not just because people are inept at defending against it, it is just naturally really hard to defend against.

[mgoetze]

FWIW that type of bid AS AN OPENER is banned at even the highest level in the WBF I think,

It's just a brown sticker convention. That makes it legal to play in the KO phase of the Bermuda Bowl, or in 4th league in Germany...

[the hog]

OK, for $?

 

Of course.

[gwnn]

It's just a brown sticker convention. That makes it legal to play in the KO phase of the Bermuda Bowl, or in 4th league in Germany...

But opening with 9 hcp is illegal anywhere in Germany right? :)

[mgoetze]

But opening with 9 hcp is illegal anywhere in Germany right? :)

Actually you are allowed to open rule of 18, so 9 HCP balanced is not allowed but 9 HCP with 5422 is allowed.

[dcrc2]

I like Psycho Suction at the 2-level, ie. (1♣) : 2x = single-suited in the suit bid, or some specified 5-5 two-suiter (not including the suit bid). The intention is similar to Phil's 2♥ = ♥ or ♠, but I prefer this way because I can't bring myself to bid anything other than 2♠ when I hold a 2♠ bid. Also the two-suiters are a good type to get into the auction.