Responding to 1NT

[Lesh18]

Hey all

 

I have been closely following the ACBL "Learn to play Bridge" program (that promotes Standard American Bidding System)but I have come across a slight problem:

 

My partner opens 1NT = 15-17 pts., balanced hand

 

If I am the responder and I have 5 hearts and 5 spades and 10+ pts., according to the program I should always go for the higher-ranked suit and invite a game by bidding at the 3. level, thus bidding 3♠ in this case.

If my partner has a 3-card fit in spades, he is to bid 4♠, if he does not have the fit, he should bid 3NT.

 

The thing that confuses me is that I do not see the point in bidding the higher-ranked suit. There very likely is a reason behind it, but I just do not see it. Because if I have 5 hearts and 5 spades and my partner has 3 hearts and 2 spades, and I bid 3♠ my partner will sign off 3NT, even though we have a 8-card fit in hearts. Should not I bid the lower-ranking suit, hearts 3♥, and then he will sing off 4♥ if he has 3 hearts, or he will bid 3♠ if he does not have those hearts, but has 3 spades. If I have those 5 spades, I will know a 4♠ contract is possible.

 

Why should I always bid the higher-ranking suit, when bidding the lower-ranking suit makes more sense to me? (when 4-4 I am to bid the lower-ranking suit, which makes more sense)

 

Thanks

[nigel_k]

In this kind of situation you are always going to bid the second suit if partner doesn't support the first one. If you respond 3♠ and partner bids 3NT, you continue with 4♥. You are likely to have an eight card major fit somewhere.

 

You are correct that it doesn't actually matter much which major you bid first when partner opens 1NT, but there is a general principle that you bid the higher ranking five card suit first because it matters in other auctions. After you bid the second suit, partner can give preference to the first suit without raising the level. He can't do this if you bid the lower ranking suit first.

[Lesh18]

"After you bid the second suit, partner can give preference to the first suit without raising the level."

 

How does he give preference? What do you mean? By bidding 3NT? If I go for 3♠, he bids 3NT how do I know whether I should stick to 3NT (was it a sign off or not? - I don't know) or should I propose hearts 4♥?

 

I still don't quite get it

Thanks

[ArtK78]

in Standard American bidding, the 3♠ response to 1NT shows a game forcing (not invitational) hand. You have the point count correct - 10+. Opener will raise spades with 3 or more spades and will bid 3NT otherwise.

 

Then, you bid your other 5 card suit - hearts - at the 4 level. Most of the time, if partner does not have 3 or more spades, he will have 3 or more hearts. So you have a likely 8 card heart fit.

 

Partner will either pass 4♥ or bid 4♠. If he opened 1NT with 2-2 in the majors, he will bid 4♠ because you would have bid 3♠ followed by 4♥ with 6 spades and 5 hearts.

 

(Don't ask me what you would have bid with 5 spades and 6 hearts - I don't need that kind of a headache).

[Lesh18]

Right

 

a) I have 5 spades and 5 hearts. I force a game with 3♥, if my partner has 3 hearts, he bids 4♥, if he only has 3 or more spades, he bids 3♠. If I do not have 5 spades for a spade-fit, and as I know that there is not fit in hearts, I will sing off 3NT. 3NT is playing safe after investigating the fit in both major suits (which proves there is no fit).

 

b) You say that I should bid 3♠ with those cards. Now my partner does not have his 3 spades for a fit, so correctly bids 3NT. Now, having those 5 hearts, I might investigate for a heart fit, I bid 4 hearts. My partner does not have his 3 hearts for a fit, so is left to pass to keep the contract low. Now I do not even know if he passed due to hopelessness or due to the heart-fit (that would make those 4♥ too)

 

So, apparently, both strategies have investigated a major suit fit, but the first one ends up being more safe than the second one. So, intiutively, keeping the bidding low all the times, thus going for the lower-ranking suit should be a more successful strategy. Why is ACBL promoting going with higher-ranking suit? Does it have something to do with pre-empting?

 

Thanks

[wyman]

Right

 

a) I have 5 spades and 5 hearts. I force a game with 3♥, if my partner has 3 hearts, he bids 4♥, if he only has 3 or more spades, he bids 3♠. If I do not have 5 spades for a spade-fit, and as I know that there is not fit in hearts, I will sing off 3NT. 3NT is playing safe after investigating the fit in both major suits (which proves there is no fit).

 

b) You say that I should bid 3♠ with those cards. Now my partner does not have his 3 spades for a fit, so correctly bids 3NT. Now, having those 5 hearts, I might investigate for a heart fit, I bid 4 hearts. My partner does not have his 3 hearts for a fit, so is left to pass to keep the contract low. Now I do not even know if he passed due to hopelessness or due to the heart-fit (that would make those 4♥ too)

 

So, apparently, both strategies have investigated a major suit fit, but the first one ends up being more safe than the second one. So, intiutively, keeping the bidding low all the times, thus going for the lower-ranking suit should be a more successful strategy. Why is ACBL promoting going with higher-ranking suit? Does it have something to do with pre-empting?

 

Thanks

 

My guess: Traditionally, one does not open 1N with two doubletons. So, with two 5-card majors, you can bid 3S-then-4H with impunity, knowing that partner has at least one 3-card major. Moreover, as has been mentioned, this treatment is consistent with other standard methods, whereby you bid the higher-ranking suit first so that partner can correct without jumping.

 

Also, it is kind of unnatural to force opener to bid 3S on a 3-card suit. Your idea does make sense; it's just not standard.

 

Hope this helps.

[campboy]

b) You say that I should bid 3♠ with those cards. Now my partner does not have his 3 spades for a fit, so correctly bids 3NT. Now, having those 5 hearts, I might investigate for a heart fit, I bid 4 hearts. My partner does not have his 3 hearts for a fit, so is left to pass to keep the contract low. Now I do not even know if he passed due to hopelessness or due to the heart-fit (that would make those 4♥ too)

The point is that this can't happen because partner has a balanced hand. If he only has two spades he must have at least three in every other suit.

[Statto]

a) I have 5 spades and 5 hearts. I force a game with 3♥, if my partner has 3 hearts, he bids 4♥, if he only has 3 or more spades, he bids 3♠. If I do not have 5 spades for a spade-fit, and as I know that there is not fit in hearts, I will sing off 3NT. 3NT is playing safe after investigating the fit in both major suits (which proves there is no fit).

You could agree to play that with your partner, it seems reasonable but is not standard. I think it's common to play 3♠ by opener after 3♥ as a cue bid showing ♥ support and the ♠A (though you probably don't want to worry too much about such bids right now), so most players would simply bid 3NT if they do not have ♥ support.

[Lesh18]

Oh right, that makes sense, of course, the opener with 1NT cannot have two doubletons.

 

 

I have other question, just a brief one, but do not want to make a new thread, so:

 

South(me), West, North(partner), East

 

East opens the bidding with 1♣. To overcall at 1-level with a new colour I need 10 and more pts., 5-cards suit (trying to avoid minimum hands, rather having a strong suit or extra pts.)

 

So let's say I have those requirements and bid 1♠. West passes and North is to bid. Does North consider my bid as if it was an ordinary opening bid (except for the lower points, of course)? Meaning if he wants to single raise, he needs 6-9 pts. and 3-card support OR if he wants to propose a new suit at the 2-level, he needs 10 and more pts. and 4-card suit? Or are there any special rules for responding to my bid, that was an overcall, not an opening one?

 

Basically, do all responses to openings hold when those "openings" were played as overcalls?

[wyman]

Basically, do all responses to openings hold when those "openings" were played as overcalls?

 

Basically yes. Bidding a new suit at the 2-level should show 5+ cards, not 4+ (this was true after an opening 1-bid as well, I think, but you should defer to the LTPB software).

[HighLow21]

The best auction would be 1NT, 2H (transfer), 2S, 4H. This shows an insistence on a major suit game and asks partner to choose which major, via pass or 4S.

[HighLow21]

Oh right, that makes sense, of course, the opener with 1NT cannot usually will not have two doubletons.

[dwar0123]

The best auction would be 1NT, 2H (transfer), 2S, 4H. This shows an insistence on a major suit game and asks partner to choose which major, via pass or 4S.

That is how I played it for a long time, but I have sense learned that standard treatment for 4♥ in this auction is a splinter showing 6♠ and at most 1♥.

[Cthulhu D]

Isn't 1NT-2H!; 2S-3H game forcing showing 5/5 in the majors?

[HighLow21]

Isn't 1NT-2H!; 2S-3H game forcing showing 5/5 in the majors?

Maybe. I would bid game because I play with a lot of randoms and don't want a confused partner to leave me in 3H. :-)

[Lesh18]

a) 2H (transfer) what is it? It is not jacoby transfers, right? ACBL teaches me that a 2-level response to a 1NT is a sing-off, denying possibility for game or higher contracts. So your 2H (transfers) is some kind of a convention, right?

 

What about playing stayman in that case? Or that might not be as effective, since I would be quite happy with 3 cards in that suit to have a fit with my 5 cards, and stayman asks for 4 cards in major?

 

What about a 3C jump as a respond to 1NT? Could it be something like a stayman, asking the partner to bid his strongest (at least) 3-card major suit? He would bid 3H or 3S and then I will immediately know if there is a fit and i will sign off a game in trumps, or 3NT?

 

b) I have also been struggling with planning the play. The ACBL software teaches me to count winners in no-trump and losers in trump plays. I have no problem with counting winners, but I struggle with counting losers. Are all trump cards considered winners, and thus not losers in this sense? How do I actually count losers?

 

And also, If I have AKQ and my dummy has J10 all in the same colour, that only makes for 3 tricks won, right? Or is there a way I can get 5 tricks out of it? Perhaps cashing some trumps or other colours from the declarer and discarding those J10? Is there any point in that?

[HighLow21]

That is how I played it for a long time, but I have sense learned that standard treatment for 4♥ in this auction is a splinter showing 6♠ and at most 1♥.

I like that treatment. I think I'll add it with trusted partners.

 

And to answer the other post yes, it seems 3H is game-forcing, but I've had too many GF bids dropped in my lifetime. It also could be a 4 OR 5-card heart suit. So I guess the right auction would be:

 

1NT-2H-2S-3H-3NT-4H-(Pass or 4S)

 

OR

 

1NT-2H-2S-3H-4(S or H)

[Statto]

It also could be a 4 OR 5-card heart suit.

It depends if 1NT-2♣;2♦-3♠ would be used for the 5-4 GF hands, or for a 6-4 hand.

[Stephen Tu]

Oh right, that makes sense, of course, the opener with 1NT cannot have two doubletons.

Usually. But most players will usually bid 22(45) in the NT range by opening 1nt. So the 3♠ followed by 4♥ scheme can end in a 5-2 fit. But most likely you will soon learn and join the 99% of players playing a Jacoby transfer based scheme, so this problem goes away.

 

Your scheme of responding 3♥ with 5-5 in the majors is playable, but very non-standard (std meaning of 3s in response would be cue in support of hearts, not 3+ spades). The recommendation of responding higher suit with 5-5 is just keeping it consistent with how you bid 5-5 in almost all other situations, you bid the higher one first, because you often plan on showing both suits, and want partner to be able to get back to the higher one at the same level.

 

East opens the bidding with 1♣. To overcall at 1-level with a new colour I need 10 and more pts., 5-cards suit (trying to avoid minimum hands, rather having a strong suit or extra pts.)

 

So let's say I have those requirements and bid 1♠. West passes and North is to bid. Does North consider my bid as if it was an ordinary opening bid (except for the lower points, of course)? Meaning if he wants to single raise, he needs 6-9 pts. and 3-card support OR if he wants to propose a new suit at the 2-level, he needs 10 and more pts. and 4-card suit? Or are there any special rules for responding to my bid, that was an overcall, not an opening one?

 

Basically, do all responses to openings hold when those "openings" were played as overcalls?

 

No, they generally don't. There are many reasons for this. The main reason is that the range for overcalling is a lot different than the range for opening, the lower limit is a lot lower, and the higher limit is a bit lower also. 1 level overcalls, a lot of people will overcall on as few as 7 pts, say AKTxx in spades and out. Overcalling light helps you compete for the partscore and obstruct the opponents when partner has a fit and can raise, and generally doesn't hurt you too often as long as partner knows you don't have to be that strong. Getting in early & low saves you from having to guess whether to come in higher later. It can also direct the best lead if the opps end up with the contract. Also, the upper end is generally dropped to about 17 or 18 hcp or so, stronger than that will generally double first.

 

Raising with 6-9 is still pretty standard. But responding 1nt is going to be roughly 8-11, with 2nt maybe 12-14, both bids stronger since overcaller is weaker on average. You don't have to scrape up a 1nt call with 6-7 pts, because partner is limited by failure to double. New suits are usually played as non-forcing (to cater to the lesser chance of game given the opp's opening, and partner's limited strength), and would need a decent 5 cd suit not a 4 card one.

 

You also have a new tool, the cue bid of the opponent's opening suit. This is usually a strongish 10+ raise, though you can also use bid it first before forcing in another suit. Since you can bid this with your invitational raises, a lot of people play the jump raise as weak instead of invitational, this is subject to partner agreement and would vary widely, especially with other beginning players in a random BBO environment.

[Statto]

a) 2H (transfer) what is it? It is not jacoby transfers, right? ACBL teaches me that a 2-level response to a 1NT is a sing-off, denying possibility for game or higher contracts. So your 2H (transfers) is some kind of a convention, right?

Yes, it is Jacoby transfer, showing a 5+ card ♠ suit and asking partner to bid 2♠.

 

What about playing stayman in that case? Or that might not be as effective, since I would be quite happy with 3 cards in that suit to have a fit with my 5 cards, and stayman asks for 4 cards in major?

Indeed, Stayman is best for finding a 4-4 fit in a major, but is also very useful when you have one 4-card major and one longer major, to check for a 4-4 fit first.

 

What about a 3C jump as a respond to 1NT? Could it be something like a stayman, asking the partner to bid his strongest (at least) 3-card major suit? He would bid 3H or 3S and then I will immediately know if there is a fit and i will sign off a game in trumps, or 3NT?

A jump to 3♣ is normally natural with a 6 card suit; it might be invitational or game forcing depending on agreements - in SAYC (and probably also in the system you are learning) it is invitational.

 

Some play "Extended Stayman" where after a 2♦ response to Stayman, you follow up with a 3♦ bid asking for a 3-card major. It's not particularly standard, but does have a name - though be aware that there is more than one convention with this name :o

[Vampyr]

(this was true after an opening 1-bid as well, I think, but you should defer to the LTPB software).

 

If not playing 1NT forcing, often the best choice is a 2-level bid in a 4-card suit.

[Vampyr]

HL, doubletons in both majors? Better not to confuse the issue for Lesh who is a complete newbie and may not have even had any lessons or played in a novice game yet. Anyway 5-4-2-2 never is appropriate for beginners; for more advanced players it is still "never-ish"; it is "not" done but maybe twice a year we come across one that "has to" be opened 1NT. And we don't play our partners for this distribution.

[Stephen Tu]

b) I have also been struggling with planning the play. The ACBL software teaches me to count winners in no-trump and losers in trump plays.

In the long run you probably should learn to count both winners & losers in all contracts, although the software recommendation is reasonable to start, if you have trouble counting both. After you get through the software tutorial, I strongly recommend getting Bill Root's book "How to declare a bridge hand".

 

I have no problem with counting winners, but I struggle with counting losers. Are all trump cards considered winners, and thus not losers in this sense? How do I actually count losers?

 

No, not all trump cards are considered winners. You have to count how many trumps the opponents are likely to win in the suit. If your trump suit is QJT9x opposite xxxx, then you have two losers in the trump suit, the ace and the king. If your trump suit is QJTxx vs. Axxx, you have one loser, the king. That loser may vanish if you are able to take a winning finesse. Sometimes you count losers assuming common breaks, but may find out in the play you have extra losers. If your trumps suit is akxxx vs. xxx, you expect 1 loser, but if the suit breaks 4-1 now you have 2.

 

For counting losers, you pick one hand between declarer and dummy as "the master hand". This is *usually* (not always, in bridge there are almost always exceptions), the hand with longer trumps. If both hands have the same # of trumps, you are usually picking the one with stronger side suits. Then you go suit by suit and count how many tricks you could possibly lose, limited by the # of cards in the master hand. You are assuming that you will ruff later rounds if the master hand runs out in that side suit, and the opps play it. Say declarer has the long trumps and is the master hand. Your side suit is Axx opposite xxx in dummy. In that suit you have 2 losers, since the opps can win 2 tricks after the ace is driven out. Say you have Ax vs. xxx in dummy. Now you only have 1 loser, since you are ruffing third round in the long hand. If you have Axx in hand vs. xx in dummy, you count it as 2 losers (you are counting losing cards in the suits of the master hand). Although you will often be ruffing the third card in dummy, it still counts as a loser you probably need to get rid of, a reminder that you have to do something about it before dummy runs out of trumps to deal with it. If there are finesses involved, you initially count them as losers for the purposes of planning the play, but you can hope for them to win if you need them to make the contract.

 

You aren't always going to count losers. Some hands the best way to play is a "cross-ruff", in which case you basically just count side winners, and how many ruffs in both hands you can do, and you just count ruffs as winners and try to have enough winners. You don't really worry about the losers because in the end game multiple losers can collapse together in the same trick, the late round trick you can't ruff anymore goes on the same trick as the opponent's trump, etc. Also some hands are best played as a "dummy reversal", where you ruff multiple times in the long hand, and in effect make the short trump hand the "master".

 

And also, If I have AKQ and my dummy has J10 all in the same colour, that only makes for 3 tricks won, right? Or is there a way I can get 5 tricks out of it? Perhaps cashing some trumps or other colours from the declarer and discarding those J10? Is there any point in that?

 

The only way you can ever get more than 5 tricks from this combo is if it is the trump suit, and you can ruff twice with the J and T. (or ruff 3 times with AKQ )

[Antrax]

I am astounded at some of the replies here. Why drag Jacoby Transfers into it? The OP specified what he knows and wants to play at this point. No doubt soon he will begin playing them, but is it so impossible to answer the question posed, in the meantime?

 

Lesh18, the software is trying to show a more general principle. You're right that if partner's 1NT is guaranteed to either have three hearts or three spades, then it doesn't matter whether the auction goes:

1NT - 3♥ (partner, I have the 10+ HCP I need to be in game opposite a 1NT opener, and also have five hearts - if I had only four I'd use stayman)

3NT (okay, but I don't have three card support for you) - 4♠ (I also have five spades. You must have three, so we're in an 8 card fit)

 

or

1NT - 3♠

3NT - 4♥

 

In both cases responder's second bid would determine the contract, and opener will have nothing to add.

However, more generally speaking, when you have two long (five card or more) suits of equal length, you usually show the higher-ranked one first. Then you can bid the other suit and know you won't go any higher than the level you've bid, since if your partner prefers your first suit (maybe he has two cards in it but only one in your second suit), he can bid it at the same level you bid your second. In a non-NT opener auction to show this principle, let's say you have five spades and five hearts. You open 1♠, partner responds 1NT and you bid 2♥. Now partner can choose to play either 2♥ or 2♠. If instead you open 1♥, partner responds 1NT and then you bid 2♠, partner has to choose between 2♠ and 3♥.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Why should I always bid the higher-ranking suit, when bidding the lower-ranking suit makes more sense to me? (when 4-4 I am to bid the lower-ranking suit, which makes more sense)

<snip>

 

When 4-4 you start with the lower ranking suit, or more precisie the suit, that

can be bid cheapest. The different wording is relevant for responder.

 

After a heart opening, and if you have 4 spades and 4 clubs, you start with the

spades, not because spades is major, but because bidding spades is cheapest.

 

When 5-5 you start with the higher ranking, if you bid the lower ranking next,

partner will know, that you have at least 5 cards in the higher ranking suit,

because you started with the higher ranking first.

Partner wont know, that you are 5-5, but he will kno, that you are at least 5-4,

if your higher ranking suit would be longer, than you would start with the higher

ranking suit.

 

In general - the length of the 2nd suit, that gets bid by the same person is at best

of equal length, than the first suit.

 

The above prinicple is true for suit basically all situations, when a player starts

bidding a suit (opening, responding, overcalling).

 

With kind regards

Marlowe