benlessard Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 A simple raise of 3c is invitational not a "courtesy". It takesa lot more to make 5 of a minor than 3n so a 3c bid here issimilar to a 2n bid w/o a spade stopper. Do not keep the bidding openw/o a purpose===this means 2s is game forcing. Well my purpose is not missing game when im 8-9 pts and partner got 16-17. xxATxJTxxxKxx At imps you cannot pass 2C with because its too dangerous too miss game if partner got 16-17 pts. Also you need to make the difference from xxAKxJxxxxKxx Wich will make game vs good minimum.The more I think about it the more I think playing 2S as GF is a poor method (unless you have a 2H bid that is artificial non GF) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 The more I think about it the more I think playing 2S as GF is a poor method (unless you have a 2H bid that is artificial non GF)Is there any possibility that playing 2♣ as up to 17 is a poor method? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xxhong Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 It is possible that partner holds short D, here 5C is in jeopardy and 3S x is easy money. However, sometimes, partner can hold a weaker hand: Qx xxx Jx AKQxxx, you may only take 1C, 2D, 1H and opps can happily make 3Sx (or they misguess H, only down 1). Here, you may wonder why you didn't want to show your club support and land at an easy 5C. With at least 9 card fit in our side, after opps bid 3S by their own when red, I think partner is more likely to hold this hand than the short D hand. what do you think a double by him would show? It isn't a penalty double, in the sense of announcing 'we've got them'. It is a general statement of values and shape....it primarily denies short spades......he virtually has to double with all 3 card holdings and many, if not most 2 card holdings, given that he has already denied a stopper. Those are precisely the hands on which we want to defend...if we have two spade losers off the top, and no other losers, we rate to be 500 or more on defence, and (in addition) there will be some hands where we are 200-800 and game fails: I previously gave him xxx KQx x AKJxxx and you still haven't explained why he can't have that, or whty he wouldn't gladly double with that, or why we'd prefer to be in 5♣. Let me make it xxx KQx x AKxxxx...I think most would still bid 2♣ over 1♠ (I know I would and I don't understand a pass) and now.....5♣ is against the odds and we still rate to go at least 500 against 3♠. I defy you to give me a hand on which it is wrong to defend, single-dummy, when partner has spade length. If you don't trust your partner to understand this auction....maybe it is you who don't understand it (at least, not as I do) or maybe you need a better partner. I wouldn't have thought this would be a difficult decision, and am surprised, given how I usually agree with your arguments, or see considerable merit even when I don't, that your views appear so dramatically different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted April 4, 2012 Report Share Posted April 4, 2012 Who says we have 400 on this hypothetical hand where partner has several small spades? Perhaps we'll have reasonable luck and make 5♣ but wouldn't you prefer to take the money? I say it, can you come up with a hand that doesnt make 5♣ when pd said he doesnt have ♠ stopper ? Letme construct for you a hand where he has wasted ♠ hcp QxxxxJxAKJxxx this will be one of the worst hands your pd can have and you may indeed go down if you cant tackle clubs. And good luck in defending 3♠ with this if 5♣ is down. Because pd will not rebid this suit the 4th time, he doesnt know you have a fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 I say it, can you come up with a hand that doesnt make 5♣ when pd said he doesnt have ♠ stopper ?xx KQx xx AQxxxx. Letme construct for you a hand where he has wasted ♠ hcp QxxxxJxAKJxxx this will be one of the worst hands your pd can have and you may indeed go down if you cant tackle clubs. And good luck in defending 3♠ with this if 5♣ is down. Because pd will not rebid this suit the 4th time, he doesnt know you have a fit.I'm sure partnber would double with this, but I don't see that as a problem. Even if we can only take one club, two diamonds and one heart, we can probably still promote ♠Q. And it's at least as likely that we take four minor suit tricks, promote ♠Q, and then leave declarer guessing how to hold his heart losers to one. Regarding the club fit, partner is already expecting at least a partial fit. He knows that we didn't bid 2♥ or 3♦ over 2♣, and he knows we didn't double 3♠. I guess we could be 2362 and unsuitable for 3♦, but most of the time we'll have three clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benlessard Posted April 5, 2012 Report Share Posted April 5, 2012 AxxAQxQAJxxxx I dont see myself making a reverse with this, 3C is out, X show 3D, IMO 2C is way better than 2NT. Its certainly standard that 1C-1D-2C can be a bad 17, I dont see why 1C-(P)-1D-(1S)-2C is different if you are using the X to show 3D. PS If you play Walsh then over 1D you can expect some clubs tolerance and be more agressive and bid 3C (but you might still be too high for no reason when partner is 3361). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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