Say something or smile and move on

[Cyberyeti]

Partner was playing in a 5♣X contract. He's drawn one round of trumps but there are clearly some outstanding, then leads a diamond from hand towards dummy's KQxxxx. The next hand flies the ace, cashes the A♥ on which her partner thinks for about 10 seconds and then ostentatiously plays the 2. The message is duly got, another diamond is led and ruffed and 5♣X goes 2 off instead of 1.

 

After the hand, one lol says to the other "I'm so glad you got my signal".

 

Smile and wish them goodbye (you gained 8 on the board, +650/-300), or say something ? and if you say something, how do you say it ?

[rduran1216]

I'd be nasty and rip them for cheating. I mean that is clearly cheating. This kinda stuff drives me nuts, ive seen even good players pull similar moves and I always chirp at them.

[jillybean]

I'd have a very hard time not saying anything. This type of thing happens often at the club and your choice is to call the

director, become very unpopular and perhaps not get a correct ruling OR smile and move on.

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/50464-teaching-the-laws-at-the-table/

[wyman]

I let the director do the talking to them.

[jjbrr]

assuming this is just a club game, i'd smile and move on.

 

if i have a good relationship with the director, after the game i'd pull him aside and say "a pair did this against me. they're not good players. in the future is this something you would like to address when it happens?"

 

if he shrugs, let it go. it's going to be more trouble than it's worth.

 

unfortunately there's a million ways for bad pairs to get you like this. really they just don't know any better, and assuming they're capable of getting better at bridge, they'll begin to realize things like that aren't ok. if they're not capable, then you're just wasting your time and making a bad experience for them.

 

sorry.

[rduran1216]

there are two pairs at the local club that do this kind of thing every hand. They are bad players so it doesn't help them much, but the few times its happened to me I've really pressed them about it. The directors generally know, but from a business standpoint there isn't much to be done at the club level. I mean these are regulars, losing their business would be bad.

[Phil]

if they are friends and they respect me and don't know any better, I will tell them after the hand that its not a good idea.

 

If they are friends and know better, then I will say something and it won't be nice. An identical situation happened a few years ago against an ex-partner and his current partner. At T1 RHO (not the ex) won a trick and INSTA shifted to dummy's strong suit. Before my ex partner played to trick 3, I said, "not a lot of doubt thats a singleton, is it"? He gave him the ruff anyway.

 

If they aren't friends and its a small game, I will internally scream, but thats about it. If they gloat a little, I'll make some remark that usually goes over their head.

 

If its a regional or NABC, the director is at the table to sort out the mess, but my experience even at this level you don't get an adjustment, which is really unfortunate.

[Vampyr]

The directors generally know, but from a business standpoint there isn't much to be done at the club level. I mean these are regulars, losing their business would be bad.

 

Wow. I don't play at proprietary clubs; is this the way they are usually run?

[jillybean]

The directors generally know, but from a business standpoint there isn't much to be done at the club level. I mean these are regulars, losing their business would be bad.

So they perhaps lose Cyberyeti & me instead, and the players who do play by the rules but would like to play "unusual" systems as well.

 

Why would applying the laws mean loss business?

[wyman]

So they lose Cyberyeti & me instead.

 

It does suck, but you understand that there are a lot more of them than there are of you.

[jjbrr]

i'd also like to say that if the villain were a professional being paid to play with a client (ie someone who should definitely know better), i still wouldn't call the director. if i did call the director in a moment of poor judgment, i would ask to talk to him away from the table and tell him the facts as i saw them and request perhaps that he pull the villain aside after the game with some sort of ruling. we all know accusing someone of cheating at the bridge table is like saying "bomb" at an airport. it's just not worth it to me.

 

honestly, the villain would never admit any wrongdoing in this hypothetical; he has too much to lose and frequently an ego too big to allow himself to be caught, or in the case he's a bad player he just doesn't know any better, which obviously doesn't excuse him, but doesn't mean we should necessarily crucify him anyway. that's why i'd relay the information to the director without the villain being able to butt in. it would be really, really terrible if the pro actually had something to think about in that spot that we didn't recognize, and while i agree it's likely he would be fishing for this exact outcome in this hypothetical, ie cheating, it's not worth potentially ruining his career over something so minor in the big scheme of things.

 

take my opinions with a grain of salt though. i think club games should be fun and easygoing, which maybe is a minority opinion. for example, i've never enforced a penalty card at a club game; i just tell them to pick the card up and forget it happened. maybe i, myself, am also breaking the rules, by being "unfair" to the other pairs in the room or whatever, but like i said, its just not worth worrying about to me.

[nigel_k]

It's no good if you are the only one who complains. Obviously you would be justified in calling the director, but if everyone else lets this stuff go, then they won't change.

 

If there is a club newsletter, I would write up the hand, without mentioning their names, but with a general tone of 'isn't it shocking this kind of grossly unethical behaviour is going on in our club?'. Or just stick something on the noticeboard.

[the hog]

Partner was playing in a 5♣X contract. He's drawn one round of trumps but there are clearly some outstanding, then leads a diamond from hand towards dummy's KQxxxx. The next hand flies the ace, cashes the A♥ on which her partner thinks for about 10 seconds and then ostentatiously plays the 2. The message is duly got, another diamond is led and ruffed and 5♣X goes 2 off instead of 1.

 

After the hand, one lol says to the other "I'm so glad you got my signal".

 

Smile and wish them goodbye (you gained 8 on the board, +650/-300), or say something ? and if you say something, how do you say it ?

 

I call the director.

[Vampyr]

we all know accusing someone of cheating at the bridge table is like saying "bomb" at an airport. it's just not worth it to me.

 

 

You don't say the person cheated. You say that you think there might have been some unauthorised information and you are not sure of the action.

[jjbrr]

You don't say the person cheated. You say that you think there might have been some unauthorised information and you are not sure of the action.

 

that's nice.

[rduran1216]

So they perhaps lose Cyberyeti & me instead, and the players who do play by the rules but would like to play "unusual" systems as well.

 

Why would applying the laws mean loss business?

 

Yes and they wouldn't care less to lose the business of people who are only there for the special games (we get alot of those in long beach) because the economics of runnin a club is building a base of people who are there at all times.

 

The point is, you regularly make your bank as a club with the core group of 100 ppl or so that have had regular games for the last 20 years. If someone from that ilk does somethin unethical its settled in house, but not to the point where they are turned away.

 

Applying the laws, having people play unusual systems leads people to get paranoid. Look ive sat in on meetings where the majority have repeatedly shot down hand records bc they think the hands are fixed. These people are 80, its not like you will change their mind. So doing something that is good in the long run (getting shuffling machines for example) just wont happen in these people's lifetimes because they are the golden goose for the ownership. Thats just the way it is here, force feeding things will lead them to find somewhere else. Currently we have to compete with the local leisure world, because the card fees are 1/4 of what our club charges, and these people who are set for life, have stopped coming because of bad experiences and raised fees. Bottom line, you do what you have to do to keep it going. Local clubs don't all have memberships and associations propping them up. The mom and pop clubs in the LA area are disappearing fast in favor of us, laguna woods, etc, who have taken in the regulars from other places that can't compete.

[quiddity]

It was a club game, they were lols, and you won the board? Why on earth would you do anything other than smile and say "nice defense"? That play probably made their evening; it would really be a dick move to "rip them for cheating". Do you want to be known as someone who has to claw and scrabble and directorize and throw lols under the bus in order to scratch in a club game?

 

edit: I see the OP didn't specify the event so maybe it wasn't a club game after all. In an "important" event, if I thought the score difference would be significant in the final standings or for qualification or something, I guess I could understand calling the director.

[Bbradley62]

... on which her partner thinks for about 10 seconds and then ostentatiously plays the 2...

 

Smile and wish them goodbye (you gained 8 on the board, +650/-300), or say something ? and if you say something, how do you say it?

Unfortunately, you were dummy on this hand. If I see this action as declarer, then before LHO returns the diamond, I ask her "Does it mean something special when your partner ostentatiously plays the 2 like that?" I have frequently asked "when your partner shifts his cards like that mid-hand, does it mean that he doesn't have any more of the suit we just played?"

[dwar0123]

When I run into situations like these, I always wonder if my own concern about the opponents getting in a quick ruff isn't coloring my perception of their mannerism such that I think there is UI going on when in fact I am just projecting my own worry. After all the 2♥ is a signal denying interest in hearts being continued, legally and dutifully received. Finding the suit to switch to probably wasn't that difficult.

 

And when you switch into the opponents super strong side suit, it doesn't take a genius to figure out it is a likely stiff, regardless of how 'fast' you perceive that switch taking place.

 

If there really is a problem, then calling the director and taking him aside is the best course of action but I would never do it vs lol's at a club game, that is just in poor taste.

[the hog]

When I run into situations like these, I always wonder if my own concern about the opponents getting in a quick ruff isn't coloring my perception of their mannerism such that I think there is UI going on when in fact I am just projecting my own worry. After all the 2♥ is a signal denying interest in hearts being continued, legally and dutifully received. Finding the suit to switch to probably wasn't that difficult.

 

And when you switch into the opponents super strong side suit, it doesn't take a genius to figure out it is a likely stiff, regardless of how 'fast' you perceive that switch taking place.

 

If there really is a problem, then calling the director and taking him aside is the best course of action but I would never do it vs lol's at a club game, that is just in poor taste.

 

So are you suggesting that following the rules is in "poor taste"? I do not understand this argument.

[jillybean]

 

The point is, you regularly make your bank as a club with the core group of 100 ppl or so that have had regular games for the last 20 years. If someone from that ilk does somethin unethical its settled in house, but not to the point where they are turned away.

How is it settled? Lashings?

 

Applying the laws, having people play unusual systems leads people to get paranoid. Look ive sat in on meetings where the majority have repeatedly shot down hand records bc they think the hands are fixed. These people are 80, its not like you will change their mind. So doing something that is good in the long run (getting shuffling machines for example) just wont happen in these people's lifetimes because they are the golden goose for the ownership. Thats just the way it is here, force feeding things will lead them to find somewhere else. Currently we have to compete with the local leisure world, because the card fees are 1/4 of what our club charges, and these people who are set for life, have stopped coming because of bad experiences and raised fees. Bottom line, you do what you have to do to keep it going. Local clubs don't all have memberships and associations propping them up. The mom and pop clubs in the LA area are disappearing fast in favor of us, laguna woods, etc, who have taken in the regulars from other places that can't compete.

What do you see for the future of your club, 10 - 20 years?

[Cthulhu D]

So are you suggesting that following the rules is in "poor taste"? I do not understand this argument.

 

He's suggesting that the LOLs are "scrubs" (to use derogatory fighting game parlance), who are playing their own scrub tastic version of bridge. When confronted with scrubs (who think artificial systems are 'cheap' or do stuff like this), you can either brutally smack them down or you can let it ride.

 

He thinks that issuing the (deserved) smackdown is in poor taste. I think it has short term consequences but is better in the long run. However, by the fighting game definition of 'scrub' Bridge is pretty scrubby in general so maybe he's right.

[dwar0123]

So are you suggesting that following the rules is in "poor taste"? I do not understand this argument.

That is a rather peculiar way of looking at my argument which misses the entire point I was trying to make. Perhaps that is why you don't understand it. I will try again.

 

In so far as one is bound by the rules to call the director when ever they suspect the opponents have been transmitting UI to each via breaks in tempo, I am suggesting that one errs on the side of caution. It is a judgement call after all and I find most people who are so worried about opponents transmitting UI are really just seeing their own worries projected upon players who play at a fairly inconsistent tempo to begin with. We are not unbiased observers and our biases do influence our perceptions.

[dwar0123]

He's suggesting that the LOLs are "scrubs" (to use derogatory fighting game parlance), who are playing their own scrub tastic version of bridge. When confronted with scrubs (who think artificial systems are 'cheap' or do stuff like this), you can either brutally smack them down or you can let it ride.

 

He thinks that issuing the (deserved) smackdown is in poor taste. I think it has short term consequences but is better in the long run. However, by the fighting game definition of 'scrub' Bridge is pretty scrubby in general so maybe he's right.

You got a chip on your shoulder there? None of that is at all what I was suggesting but thanks for projecting your own biases upon my argument and coming to a completely wrong conclusion. Not at all ironic I assure you.

[Cthulhu D]

You got a chip on your shoulder there? None of that is at all what I was suggesting but thanks for projecting your own biases upon my argument and coming to a completely wrong conclusion. Not at all ironic I assure you.

 

Not clear what I could have a chip on my shoulder about. The quote in question:

 

If there really is a problem, then calling the director and taking him aside is the best course of action but I would never do it vs lol's at a club game, that is just in poor taste.

 

So, seriously, why wouldn't you do it vs lols in club games? It's not hard to see the parallels between your statement above, and the fighting game perception of scrubs. You even use a pejorative!