Yet Another Fast Arrival Question

[Bbradley62]

[hv=lin=pn|FastArriver,,~~M46848,~~M46846,~~M46847|st%7C%7Cmd%7C4S7TAH4JKAD356C34K%2CS2345H268D7JAC5TJ%2CS689QKH5D2QC678QA%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%206%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%202-5%20S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%21%7Can%7CJacoby%20transfer%20--%205%2B%20S%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Can%7CTransfer%20completed%20to%20S%20--%202-5%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%202-5%20S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3C%7Can%7CNew%20suit%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2010%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7CSupport%20but%20no%20extra%20values%20--%202-5%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%203-5%20S%3B%2015%2B%20HCP%3B%2016-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4N%7Can%7CBlackwood%20%28S%29%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2016%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C5H%7Can%7CTwo%20or%20five%20key%20cards%3B%20no%20queen%20--%202-5%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%203-5%20S%3B%2015%2B%20HCP%3B%2016-%20total%20points%3B%203%2B%20con%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C6S%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2016%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv]

[hv=lin=pn|NotFastArriver,~~M46845,~~M46843,~~M46844|st%7C%7Cmd%7C4S7TAH4JKAD356C34K%2C%2C%2C%7Crh%7C%7Cah%7CBoard%206%7Csv%7Ce%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C1N%7Can%7Cnotrump%20opener.%20Could%20have%205M.%20--%202-5%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%202-5%20S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2H%21%7Can%7CJacoby%20transfer%20--%205%2B%20S%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C2S%7Can%7CTransfer%20completed%20to%20S%20--%202-5%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%202-5%20S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3C%7Can%7CNew%20suit%20--%204%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2010%2B%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C3S%7Can%7C2-3%20C%3B%202-5%20D%3B%202-5%20H%3B%203%20S%3B%2015-17%20HCP%3B%2018-%20total%20points%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7C4S%7Can%7C4%2B%20C%3B%205%2B%20S%3B%2010-15%20total%20points%20%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cmb%7Cp%7Cpc%7C]360|270[/hv]

I'm trying to figure out what hands should bid fast arrival in this auction and what hands shouldn't. It seems to me that openers who are going to support fall into:

(1) min w/3♠

(2) max w/3♠

(3) min w/4-5♠

(4) max w/4-5♠

 

(4) will super-accept initially. Therefore, the question is which of (1), (2) and (3) should bid 3♠ and which should bid 4♠ over 3♣. Based on the descriptions of 3♠ and 4♠, it appears that (1) and (2) would bid 3♠, and (1) and (3) would bid 4♠. So, how does someone holding (1) know when he should bid 3♠ and when he should bid 4♠? Or should the descriptions be different to alleviate this problem?

 

Edit: Replaced the first table diagram with one that includes full descriptions for South's bids.

Edited April 1, 2012 by Bbradley62

[pigpenz]

on some of these hands the only way to tell is to check what

3♠ and 4♠ mean over 3♣ before you make them.

 

I would think 3♠ over initial transfer would be max with xxxx card support

 

after 3♣ call your stuck playing what GIB does and if you say you have a bigger hand

then you have GIB is famous for making you pay for it. though on this hand who knows what

GIB expects

[cloa513]

on some of these hands the only way to tell is to check what

3♠ and 4♠ mean over 3♣ before you make them.

 

I would think 3♠ over initial transfer would be max with xxxx card support

 

after 3♣ call your stuck playing what GIB does and if you say you have a bigger hand

then you have GIB is famous for making you pay for it. though on this hand who knows what

GIB expects

This is just another example of the bid descriptions not matching what is in GIB's internal logic- read the bid descriptions.

[Bbradley62]

on some of these hands the only way to tell is to check what 3♠ and 4♠ mean over 3♣ before you make them.

Yes, this is exactly what I did and exactly why I have posted the question. The given hand fits both the 3♠ and 4♠ responses, and I'm trying to determine how to know which is right.

[barmar]

I think this is a bug. We used to just have a few simple rules that just did the slow/fast arrival thing for good/bad hands. Then a new module was added to define more followups depending on the quality of support for the second suit, but some of the old rules were left in place. As a result, we have two different rules that say when to bid 3♠: one says it's a max, the other says it just denies support for the second suit.

 

Georgi, can you please reconcile these?

[georgi]

Adjusted, so now 3♠ will show correct information:

 

- Support 3rd S. No 4th C -- 2-3 C; 2-5 D; 2-5 H; 3 S; 17 HCP; 17-18 total points

 

or if second suit is diamonds

 

- Support 3rd S. No 4th D -- 2-5 C; 2-3 D; 2-5 H; 3 S; 17 HCP; 17-18 total points

 

Fast arrival 4♠ will be:

 

- Support but no extra values -- 2-5 C; 2-5 D; 2-5 H; 3-5 S; 15-16 HCP; 18- total points

 

3♠ shows exactly 3 because with max hand GIB will make or will expect partner to make supperaccept showing doubleton or 2NT 4333 maximum.

That's why fast arrival could have 4 cards if minimal hand.

[Bbradley62]

Adjusted, so now 3♠ will show correct information:

 

- Support 3rd S. No 4th C -- 2-3 C; 2-5 D; 2-5 H; 3 S; 17 HCP; 17-18 total points

(1) Hopefully you will not include "Support 3rd S" in the description, since "3S" is included later.

(2) I do not understand why this should deny 4 clubs. Am I expected to raise clubs instead of showing my spade support if I am 3244 w/17HCP?

[pigpenz]

Yes, this is exactly what I did and exactly why I have posted the question. The given hand fits both the 3♠ and 4♠ responses, and I'm trying to determine how to know which is right.

yes been there done that and it doesnt always work.

I feel like when I play a few hands with GIB what I am aiming for is to

not have any bidding disasters....which sometimes is hard to do no matter how hard you try.

[barmar]

(1) Hopefully you will not include "Support 3rd S" in the description, since "3S" is included later.

I think Georgi has been trying to include more explanatory comments when possible, even if they're redundant with the detailed descriptions. Although we need to work on his English terminology (we don't say "3rd" in this context). :)

(2) I do not understand why this should deny 4 clubs. Am I expected to raise clubs instead of showing my spade support if I am 3244 w/17HCP?

GIB's system is:

 

1. With a fit in major only, bid the major.

2. With a good double fit and non-minimum, raise the minor.

3. With a fit in minor only, bid the cheapest third suit as temporizing. This allows responder to bid 3NT if he's not interested in looking for slam in the minor.

4. Otherwise, bid 3NT.

 

I don't know if this is a common treatment, but it has some logic to it.

 

An interesting thing about the above is that it will bid 3NT with a "bad" double fit -- most of opener's strength is in the other 2 suits. Good bridge players eschew playing in their 8-card fit when it seems like NT will play as well. I wonder if the logic here mirrors that.