How do you respond with a balanced 19 count?

[Cthulhu D]

Playing 2/1 GF, and a 15-17 NT you pick up the following mittful 3rd in at green:

 

S: AQ

H: J84

D: KQT3

C: AKT6

 

While your contemplating how to open this collection when it gets around to you partner surprises you by opening 1C as dealer.

 

What the heck is the standard response here? Temporise with 1D? A strong jump shift?

 

I had:

 

 

 

T87

AK52

A4

QJ43

 

We had a very forgettable auction that accidently got to the good 6NT because partner thought a bid was strong and forcing and I thought it was invitational - but I had a pretty good max.

 

 

[jillybean]

1♦ is fine, your next bid is the difficult bid.

[Cthulhu D]

So what would the next bid be then? Assume partner comes back with 1NT and opens balanced 11 counts.

[jillybean]

Do you mean partner opens balanced 11 counts?

 

Lacking any fancy tools I would try 4N - Quantitative, asking partner to bid 6N if she has a maximum for her opening.

~33 hcp is needed for a small slam so although your hand is fabulous, slam is marginal.

[BunnyGo]

I think 1♦ and 2♣ if it were inverted are both reasonable starts. I think I prefer 2♣ because you aren't likely to play in diamonds as you have no preference between the minors, and your partner opened 1♣. It also gets the forcing nature of your hand out.

 

If you bid 1♦ and it comes back 1NT to you, then it depends what GF options you have. Your partner must have a 4 card club suit on this auction, so 6 or 7 ♣ is definitely a possibility (so you don't want to just bid 4NT invitational). Make a forcing bid, and if no good one exists bid 2♥...it may discourage an unwanted heart lead while also being forcing.

[BunnyGo]

P.S. I don't understand why your partner doesn't rebid hearts. Do you have the agreement that balanced minimum hands bypass a 4 card major for the 2nd bid?

[aguahombre]

Playing natural systems in the traditional way, balanced responding hands which are at least game-forcing opposite a 1m opening bid fall into pretty much three strata:

 

13-15 (16?)......respond 2NT, showing the hand is balanced and forcing.

16-17 (ish)......respond 3NT, showing a balanced hand in that range.

18-19............respond with your balanced forcing 2NT. With the given opening bid, your partner will simply bid 3NT ---but, you will now bid 4NT. This is a prepared auction to show your size and strength, not asking for Aces.

 

This time, partner will look at his nice 14 and accept the slam invitation by bidding 6NT.

[Cthulhu D]

P.S. I don't understand why your partner doesn't rebid hearts. Do you have the agreement that balanced minimum hands bypass a 4 card major for the 2nd bid?

 

Yeah we actually play transfer walsh but that's so far away from the point I didn't want to bring it up.

 

13-15 (16?)......respond 2NT, showing the hand is balanced and forcing.

16-17 (ish)......respond 3NT, showing a balanced hand in that range.

18-19............respond with your balanced forcing 2NT. With the given opening bid, your partner will simply bid 3NT ---but, you will now bid 4NT. This is a prepared auction to show your size and strength, not asking for Aces.

 

Okay this is interesting, I was taught 2NT is an invite and 3NT is the 13-15 bal.

[nigel_k]

I would jump shift in diamonds and then support clubs (assuming your jump shift is strong). If the jump shift is not strong, then respond 1♦ and make a forcing club raise next time, however you do that depending on your methods and opener's rebid.

 

Something like 1♣-1♦-1NT-4NT-6NT is ok, but 6♣ will often play better than 6NT (as it does here).

[jillybean]

Is this the N/B forum? :) I'm way off track.

[Bbradley62]

Playing natural systems in the traditional way, balanced responding hands which are at least game-forcing opposite a 1m opening bid fall into pretty much three strata:

 

13-15 (16?)......respond 2NT, showing the hand is balanced and forcing.

16-17 (ish)......respond 3NT, showing a balanced hand in that range.

18-19............respond with your balanced forcing 2NT. With the given opening bid, your partner will simply bid 3NT ---but, you will now bid 4NT. This is a prepared auction to show your size and strength, not asking for Aces.

 

This time, partner will look at his nice 14 and accept the slam invitation by bidding 6NT.

Except that many people playing natural systems in the traditional way, including those playing "BBO Advanced (2/1=GF)", play that 2N shows 11-12 and 3N shows 13-15 over partner's 1m opener.

[Bbradley62]

Is this the N/B forum? :) I'm way off track.

Actually I think that "OMG, what do I do with a balanced 19HCP?" is a perfectly reasonable N/B question, and your first two responses are completely on track.

[aguahombre]

Except that many people playing natural systems in the traditional way, including those playing "BBO Advanced (2/1=GF)", play that 2N shows 11-12 and 3N shows 13-15 over partner's 1m opener.

I am sure many people do that. But, not if they are playing the Yellow Card often used by N/B players. SAYC (Yellow Card) is a preset system for players to use when they don't choose to make up a system of their own. It is very specific about what most opening bids and responses show.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1C - 2C! GF... if you play inverted minors . ( I should have 5 cards ♣, but after all, I don't have a 4 card major, and that information is also contained in my bid -- besides the game force ).

 

1C - 2C!

2NT ( 12-14 ) - 4NT ( Quantitative )

6NT

[S2000magic]

I would make a (strong) jump shift in diamonds, then rebid in notrump (if partner bids hearts) or clubs (if not).

[Bbradley62]

I am sure many people do that. But, not if they are playing the Yellow Card often used by N/B players. SAYC (Yellow Card) is a preset system for players to use when they don't choose to make up a system of their own. It is very specific about what most opening bids and responses show.

While everything you've said here is true, OP specifically stated that he's playing 2/1, so your post here is also completely irrelevant.

[the hog]

I think a strong Jump shift in Ds is terrible. Partner should consider that Ax of Ds will give a play for 6 tricks, not 3 as in the actual case.

I would simply bid 1D and over 1NT follow up with 4NT quantitative.

[aguahombre]

While everything you've said here is true, OP specifically stated that he's playing 2/1, so your post here is also completely irrelevant.

It is just a coincidence that our agreements accidentally are the same in our version of 2/1. Auctions which start with 1C are actually irrelevant to 2/1, since they don't start with a 2/1 sequence (defined as two of a lower suit over one of a higher suit). I should have pointed out that 2NT in response to 1m has been changed in some people's style to be less than game force, and they therefore cannot use what I suggested.

[Charlie Yu]

1♦ and 2♣ are both fine, all I want to know is partner's HCP range, he will tell me with his next bid.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

1D.

 

Simple rule: If opener opens in a suit, he promises to bid again, if given the chance

and if responder did not limit his hand.

The rule is not complete, repsonder can also make a bid that is limited but commits

the partnership to game, but than the auction cannot die below game level.

 

Responder limits his hand by bidding 1NT and 2NT, suit bid are unlimited.

 

Hence 1D cannot be passed.

 

The advantage of 1D is, that you give opner maximal room to describe his hand, if

you had 4 spades, but no 4 card diamond / heart suit, bidding spades robs opener the

opportunity to bid 1D / 1H, and this can mean, that opener cannot communicate everything.

 

There are times, when you say, that this is loss of opportunity for opener is ok, e.g.

it is quite common to bid 1S over a 1 C opening, if you have 4 diamonds and 4 spades,

but with the given hand give opener maximal room.

 

What you would like to hear is, if opener limits his hand to a min opener.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I believe N/B would be better served, if they forget (even better, never heard about)

the existence of suit jump shift responses after a 1 level suit opening - and I am a fan of

strong jump shifts.

[P_Marlowe]

So what would the next bid be then? Assume partner comes back with 1NT and opens balanced 11 counts.

If you regular fear, that partner has dead min, when he opens, than you should stop playing dead

min openers.

A similar situation is, when you start arguing "but it was an opening that occurred in 3rd hand, thats

why I did not give him credit for a real opener ...".

 

If you have are a Novice / Beginner, and if you have a teacher, which teaches you this in your 1st

year ... kill him.

 

And if you post a hand, with a bidding seq., when opener is bypassing a major, than you should reconsider

the forum as well. I have nothing against this style, I play it myself, but it does not belong in this

section of the forum.

 

Sry.

 

But to answer your question:

 

1NT can be 11-14HCP bal, you have 19HCP, for a small slam you need 33HCP, you may have the required HCP

amount, but you cant be sure, hence you invite.

Raising a NT bid to 4NT is the invite, this is similar to raising a 1NT opener to 2NT,

and raising a 2 NT opener to 4NT.

 

If the amount of HCPs is there, you will also have enough Aces, so that they cant cash the first 2 tricks.

 

If partner is in the upper range of 11-14, i.e. if he has 13-14 he will raise 4NT to 6NT, otherwise he will

pass.

If 1NT showes 12-14, than partner should pass with some 13 HCP hands, and raise with some others.

 

Raising 4NT to only 5NT is played as reinvite, no idea how to better phrase it.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

P.S. I don't understand why your partner doesn't rebid hearts. Do you have the agreement that balanced minimum hands bypass a 4 card major for the 2nd bid?

Ignore it.

 

If you are interested in this style, create a new thread in the I/A section.

[P_Marlowe]

1♦ and 2♣ are both fine, all I want to know is partner's HCP range, he will tell me with his next bid.

No. 2C is not fine, unless you play 2C as forcing. (*)

And even than 2C makes it harder for opener to tell his range, you take away 4 steps.

 

(*) We can discuss, if this is an agreement N/B players should pick up - my answer is NO,

but your answer may be YES, and that would be ok for me.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[ahydra]

Definitely go slow - 1D. And I agree with whoever it was that said N/B players should be discouraged from making jump shifts. In fact, I feel all players should be discouraged from making jump shifts ;)

 

Now, what to do after 1NT comes back. It depends on agreements. For instance, you might like to try 4C to try for slam with clubs trumps (if playing 1C = 4cards), but some play this as Gerber.

 

You could try 3C, if you are 100% sure it's forcing. (5C certainly isn't.)

 

Or, you can just say "my hand is flat, let's play NT" and go for 4NT quantitative like others have suggested. I think I would pick this option.

 

ahydra

[phil_20686]

 

And if you post a hand, with a bidding seq., when opener is bypassing a major, than you should reconsider

the forum as well. I have nothing against this style, I play it myself, but it does not belong in this

section of the forum.

 

This is the kind of issue we are going to get in this forum. This is the normal way to play in the UK, and if you saw 1c-1d-1h undiscussed it would show 45 and that is what we teach all our beginners (if they arent learning acol). Partly I guess because this is the normal way to bid in acol, since you bid up the line and rebid 15-17 1N, so lots of people carried over this habit in club bridge. Partly I guess its because basically everyone now plays walsh style.

 

When you are teaching there is a strong emphasis on teaching the most common way to play in your region, so they can go to clubs and won't be surprised. The problem for a forum like this is we are not all from the same region. :)