Trump quality

[BunnyGo]

Third seat Red vs Red you hold:

 

A82, K54, A43, T854

 

The auction:

 

1D-(2N*)-X-(3C)

P-(P)-X-AP

 

Thoughts on the doubles?

[phil_20686]

Seems brave to me. Also you seem to be playing a style I dislike. I play first double = values, and then first subsequent double is t/o. It looks like you are playing dble = values, and then dble = pen.

 

I intended brave to mean that I wouldn't dble 3c for penalty, but I think its probably a long time winner, its just a very high variance and when I take a high variance action I want to have a goodly positive expectation, and here I think its only a little above flat.

Edited March 30, 2012 by phil_20686

[masse24]

Braver than I would be.

I assume the first double shows an ability to penalize one or both of their suits, and the 2nd double confirms this.

But, with most of my "muscle" outside of those suits and a flattish hand, it doesn't feel right.

Also, as mentioned, you have no length in declarer's suits.

 

I would be more inclined to pass, and, when 3!C returned to me, raise to 3!D. :unsure:

[nigel_k]

The first double is fine and I think a second (penalty) double is ok as well. 3♣ could make, but I expect it to usually fail and we'll often collect 500 when we have no game (or weren't going to bid one). If partner is the sort of player who will stand the double with a club void expecting to get rich because we clearly have a massive club stack, then it's too risky obviously.

[JLOGIC]

looks fine

[ahydra]

Looks fine at matchpoints (just). Far too risky at imps - I would go with 3D.

 

ahydra

[BunnyGo]

Ok, and for those who said it was "ok" or "pushy" to double what's the partner with:

 

KJT7, JT8, KQ9762, void

 

supposed to do? Pull it and risk partner having it set in hand or sit and let it make an overtrick doubled?

[Finch]

Pull it.

 

There are two ways you can play this auction: the second double is absolute trump stack unpullable penalties, or the second double says 'I have trump length and am interesting in defending if you have a normal hand'. You can't play it as either, because otherwise partner never knows when to pull. The second meaning comes up much more often, so most people play the latter - this collects a larger number of smaller penalties compared to the smaller number of very big penalties.

 

It's worth discussing what it means to pass 2NT then double on the next round. There are again two possible meanings - light take-out and absolute trump stack penalties. I recently switched from the latter to the former.

[qwery_hi]

Is it better to pull it to 3D or 3S? Would you have rather not passed 3C in the previous round?

 

Pull it.

 

There are two ways you can play this auction: the second double is absolute trump stack unpullable penalties, or the second double says 'I have trump length and am interesting in defending if you have a normal hand'. You can't play it as either, because otherwise partner never knows when to pull. The second meaning comes up much more often, so most people play the latter - this collects a larger number of smaller penalties compared to the smaller number of very big penalties.

 

It's worth discussing what it means to pass 2NT then double on the next round. There are again two possible meanings - light take-out and absolute trump stack penalties. I recently switched from the latter to the former.

[mgoetze]

TOFU is horrible. It is bad enough that I sometimes have to put up with it in Email, please don't introduce it to the forums.

 

Is it better to pull it to 3D or 3S? Would you have rather not passed 3C in the previous round?

Pull it.

 

There are two ways you can play this auction: the second double is absolute trump stack unpullable penalties, or the second double says 'I have trump length and am interesting in defending if you have a normal hand'. You can't play it as either, because otherwise partner never knows when to pull. The second meaning comes up much more often, so most people play the latter - this collects a larger number of smaller penalties compared to the smaller number of very big penalties.

 

It's worth discussing what it means to pass 2NT then double on the next round. There are again two possible meanings - light take-out and absolute trump stack penalties. I recently switched from the latter to the former.

[phil_20686]

I would pull to 3D.

 

Partner can obviously have a stack, but often he is expecting -1 and hoping for -2 when you have a typical hand. I think this hand has less defense than is typical and that makes sitting a risk. Even with a club void and 6 reasonable diamonds I would sit it if I felt my defence was reasonable, something like AQxx Qxx AJTxxx -. There is a real chance that you are pulling into a misfit and can go for a number, I would not risk that except that I think sitting is also super risky with the hand you gave.

[Finch]

I would pull to 3D, and you are right with a minimum distributional opening I'd do it 'in front of' partner - traditionally bidding first in a forcing pass auction is weaker than passing then pulling the double.

[phil_20686]

I would pull to 3D, and you are right with a minimum distributional opening I'd do it 'in front of' partner - traditionally bidding first in a forcing pass auction is weaker than passing then pulling the double.

 

SUrely this only applies if you think that this auction is forcing to 3cx or 3 of a suit? I do not see how passing and pulling should be stronger if you are hoping to play 3c undoubled?

[Finch]

SUrely this only applies if you think that this auction is forcing to 3cx or 3 of a suit? I do not see how passing and pulling should be stronger if you are hoping to play 3c undoubled?

 

True. I was making an assumption, which is that the double of 2NT set up a force at the 3-level. I should have stated that.