Minor Suit Stayman

[jillybean]

I've recently added MSS to the card

 

1N

2

♣

Stayman

2

♦

Transfer

♥

2

♥

Transfer

♠

2

♠

MSS or

♦

bust

2N relay to 3

♣

weak or gf 4441/5440

 

After 1n 2♠*openers rebid is

2N no 4cm

3♣/♦ natural :)

 

over 2N responder bids

3

♣

inviational 5+

3

♦

♦

bust

 

What I want to know is how does responder show diamond slam interest.

 

1N 2♠*

2N/3♣ 4♦ KC for ♦ ?

 

1n 2♠*

2N/3♣ 4N ♦ slam interest, asking for cue?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1NT - 2S*

2NT - ??

......... 3C = weak sign-off, or Opener corrects to 3D for play

......... 3D = weak, long ♦

......... 3H/3S = shortness & slammish (5/4)+ either way in minors

......... 3NT = 2/2 in majors and 5/4 either way in minors

......... 4C = freak: 1 1 6 5 where 4C shows the shorter suit ( IanD invention )

......... 4D = freak: 1 1 5 6

 

Similar structures for 3C or 3D over 2S* except you may want to use 4C/4D for something else.

[mike777]

1nt=2s

2nt=

 

 

3c=weak with 5-5 minors

3d=sign off

3h=slam try with longer clubs

3s=slam try with longer diamonds

3nt=sign off

 

 

1nt=2c(does not promise major)

2x=3d=gf in diamonds.

 

 

1nt=2nt forces 3c

3c=pass to play, other are three suited hands.

[KamalK]

Thanks Jilly for posting this here,and to Mike and Two4Bridge for their responses. Its something I've been meaning to learn for a long time. Presently I play transfers only to Majors and this post will now be v v useful.

 

Thanks again guys :)

[mattias]

After 1n 2♠*openers rebid is

2N no 4cm

3♣/♦ natural :)

 

over 2N responder bids

3

♣

inviational 5+

3

♦

♦

bust

 

What does responder bid with the invitational club hand over 3♦? It seems like you end up too high here if you can bid 2♠ with an invitational hand with clubs.

[P_Marlowe]

What does responder bid with the invitational club hand over 3♦? It seems like you end up too high here if you can bid 2♠ with an invitational hand with clubs.

Start with Stayman followed by a 2NT bid.

You wont show clubs with inv. values, but you could not do this before without MSS,

you would have to bid 2NT as well, so have add. options, but the add. option dont

cover all.

 

The given structure implies, that Stayman has to be bid with all invitational hands,

regardless, if they have a 4 card major or not.

This has also some implications to Stayman Sequences, e.g.

 

1NT - 2C

2H - 2S

 

2S showes only 4 cards, catering for opener being 4-4 in the majors, there may be

other imlications as well.

 

Also the structure seems to be incomplete, since single suited gf minor hands are missing.

and it may well be, that 2C followed by 3C / 3D showes the gf hand with minors, or

those hands get to be shown via the jump response to 3m.

 

And 2C followed by 3C / 3D, showes what ever.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[aguahombre]

Single minor slam interest hands are not part of the traditional MSS bag; nor are invitational hands.

 

The hand types for 2S are:

 

5+5+ minors, weak.

Both minors, strong.

Diamond bust.

 

If responder has a single-minor slammish hand, the auction starts with Stayman, then the minor ---or (if agreed) the Walsh Relay which begins with 2♦, and then negates the heart transfer before launching into the minor suit slam try.

 

Hands which do have both minors and find a "hit" after responding 2S continue with a major suit bid...showing shortness and slam interest.

[mattias]

Start with Stayman followed by a 2NT bid.

You wont show clubs with inv. values, but you could not do this before without MSS,

you would have to bid 2NT as well, so have add. options, but the add. option dont

cover all.

 

My point was that including 5+ clubs invitational in 2♠ with the given responding structure doesn't work, since you get too high after 3♦ rebid by opener.

[Fluffy]

1NT-3♦ slam try in diamonds....

[mgoetze]

I've recently added MSS to the card

 

1N

2

♣

Stayman

2

♦

Transfer

♥

2

♥

Transfer

♠

2

♠

MSS or

♦

bust

2N relay to 3

♣

weak or gf 4441/5440

So actually some funny mix of MSS and transfer? It's not clear your diamond slam hands belong here, what are 3♣, 3♦...?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

When giving-up 4-suit transfers, I think for the strong/long minor hands would have to be included in the 1NT - 2NT! sequence ( below ). Unfortunately, your long minor suit is first shown at the FOUR level ( not very efficient ) since the 3-level rebids are reserved for the 4 4 4 1 or 5 4 4 0 hands:

1NT - 2NT! ( forces 3C )

3C - ??

...... pass = ♣ bust

...... 3D/3H/3S/3NT show respective suit shortness ( 3NT showing ♣ shortness )

...... 4C = long, strong ♣, slammish

...... 4D = long, strong ♦, slammish

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

The ♣ or ♦ invitational hands are shown with the 3-level jumps :

1NT - 3C and 1NT - 3D .

[Cyberyeti]

We alter the initial responses, we bid 2N with none of the above, 3♣ with 4 diamonds, 3♦ with 5 clubs meaning we can stick the weak hand with clubs in here too.

 

What do you play 2♣ followed by 3♦ as ?

[jillybean]

So actually some funny mix of MSS and transfer? It's not clear your diamond slam hands belong here, what are 3♣, 3♦...?

The sequence you quoted is our 1nt structure, MSS followed that..

 

After 1n 2♠*openers rebid is

2N no 4cm

3♣/♦ natural

 

over 2N responder bids

 

3♣ inviational 5+

3♦ ♦ bust

 

we play

1N 3♣ puppet and 1N 3♦ as game invite

 

 

I am wondering what to do with a hand with diamond slam interest but perhaps as aguahombre says "Single minor slam interest hands are not part of the traditional MSS bag"

[awm]

Elianna and I play this structure. The rest is:

 

1. A direct 3m is natural invitational.

2. 2s followed by 3c over 2nt is weak w/ both minors.

3. Minor one-suiter with slam interest starts with stayman and then bids 3m. This does not promise a major.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Back in December there was this thread re MSS :

 

http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/49962-does-the-convention-have-a-name/page__st__20

 

And within the above thread ( post 21 by Flameous ) was this reference about continuations after MSS :

 

http://toohighagain.blogspot.com/2011/05/mss-continuations.html

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe there is something there that might prove helpful.

[jillybean]

3. Minor one-suiter with slam interest starts with stayman and then bids 3m. This does not promise a major.

 

I like this, Flameous system I'm sure is great but it looks far too complicated for me.

[jillybean]

1N 2♠*

2N* 3M(singleton) 4M (void)

 

Does opener now cue?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

1N 2♠*

2N* 3M(singleton) 4M (void)

 

Does Opener now cue?

Flameous put down 2 rules when Responder has shown both minors and shortness :

 

1) Use the "shortness suit" as RKC .

 

2) "Ask" from either side and Reply as 6 Ace ( but not necessarily for 2 Queens ) .

 

Opener has shown less than 4 cards minor with the 2NT . Let's say Responder next bids 3M ( shortness ).

If Opener sees a problem with 3NT, then make the cheapest cuebid.... there is still room BELOW 4M! ( as 6A-RKC ).

 

I would assume 4C and 4D would also be cues ( showing A, K or Q ) Edit: since you don't know which minor is going to be the side-suit.

Edited March 31, 2012 by TWO4BRIDGE

[jillybean]

Thanks, that sounds great and I will have another read of Flameous's blog. I am discussing all of this with my regular partner but I was also hoping that I could sit down with casual/pickup partners and 'play MSS'. That idea now seems dangerous and needs a fair amount of discussion.

 

Going back to the basic response structure, I'm not sure but I think many players here play MSS 1N - 2S - 2N as denying a 4cm. What I have been reading on Bridge Guys uses 2N as both minors, slam interest and 3N as denying a minor, no slam interest. But this sounds far from main stream?

[awm]

Thanks, that sounds great and I will have another read of Flameous's blog. I am discussing all of this with my regular partner but I was also hoping that I could sit down with casual/pickup partners and 'play MSS'. That idea now seems dangerous and needs a fair amount of discussion.

 

Going back to the basic response structure, I'm not sure but I think many players here play MSS 1N - 2S - 2N as denying a 4cm. What I have been reading on Bridge Guys uses 2N as both minors, slam interest and 3N as denying a minor, no slam interest. But this sounds far from main stream?

 

It's far from mainstream. In fact if you are using this method as a way to sign off in diamonds (among other things) you obviously do not want opener bidding 3NT on the worst possible hand from your perspective. Standard response to minor suit stayman is 2NT=no minor.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 

If responder has a single-minor slammish hand, the auction starts with Stayman, then the minor ---or (if agreed) the Walsh Relay which begins with 2♦, and then negates the heart transfer before launching into the minor suit slam try.

 

A) Re: the Walsh Relay, what happens when Opener makes a Super-Accept ?

 

ie:

1NT - 2D!

2H - 2S! [ Walsh Relay , negating the ♥-transfer; thus giving another way to bid 2S ( for the minors ) ]

 

But if Opener Super-Accepts:

1NT - 2D!

3H - ?? Now what ?

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

B) I don't understand bidding Stayman and then 3C/3D to show the long minor, slammish .

Are you saying 3C/3D negates any interest in a Major ?

 

Normally ( Baze convention ):

1NT - 2C

2H - 3C/3D ( no fit for ♥, have 4oM, ♠ here, and a good 5 or 6+ bid minor, slammish )

?? ( Now if Opener were 4-4 in the Majors, he would bid 3S next )

 

It looks like your "Stayman treatment" would eliminate finding a Major fit if 3C/3D negates interest in a Major.

[aguahombre]

Re: the Walsh Relay, what happens when Opener makes Super-Accept ?

If you have Walsh Relays, there is only one super-accept of the 2D alleged xfer to hearts: 2♠.

 

If opener doesn't super-accept, 2♠ by responder breaks the xfer and starts Walsh

 

1N-2D

2H-2S

2N...forced, after which responders uses the 3-level to show broken/solid and the specific minor.

 

But, when the super accept occurs:

1N-2D

2S-2N* confirms a real transfer, forcing 3H.

 

1N-2D

2S-any 3-bid is the minor suit slam try, same bids as after breaking the xfer, but now direct.

[aguahombre]

I don't understand bidding Stayman and then 3C/3D to show the long minor, slammish .

Are you saying 3C/3D negates any interest in a Major ?

 

It looks like your "Stayman treatment" would eliminate finding a Major fit if 3C/3D negates interest in a Major.

That is one of the reasons it isn't our Stayman treatment, and we use the Walsh relays. But, people who do have that Stayman treatment must reserve 3S as natural (4-4 majors) after:

 

1N-2C

2H-3m....in case responder does have 4 spades. It can't be a control bid for the minor.

[jillybean]

[hv=pc=n&s=sk9ha7dk9632ca854&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1np?]133|200[/hv]

 

I need better suit quality in the minors to use MSS here do I?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Aquaman.... Thx

I had some notes on Walsh Relay, which apparently did not "sink in" until you mentioned that the ONLY Super-Accept

for ♥ is 2S!

Thx again.