System challange

[bluecalm]

Opener's hands:

a)x AQxxx AJxx xxx

b)x AQxxx AKxx xxx

 

Responder's hand:

xxx KJx Qxx AKQx

 

We play 2/1. How do we stop in 4H opposite hand a) and reach 6H opposite hand b).

The problem as I see it is that without nice system you end up in:

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

??? and if you cuebid here with both hands responder still doesn't know which one of the hands you have and has no space to for invites anymore. Also you have very wide range here so I am not sure if any kind of sersious-nonserious solves that problem (as both hands would be rather non serious).

In actual hand we cue-bid but still two hands were possible so I just gambled 6H (either it's very good (or on top) or it's on the finesse).

 

Ideas ?

[aguahombre]

Your auction thru 3H seems fine. Partner and I have an agreement at that point which apparently is not the mainstream view.

 

Both hands are unlimited, and opener's at bat...first to clarify her strength.

 

---with the first hand, she just bids 4H.

---with the second, she will cue...showing not really extra values, but a nice hand willing to cooperate if pard is slammish.

---with a third hand type (real biggie), she would bid 3NT.

 

Other threads have probed use of "serious 3NT" versus non-serious. But it is not clear from what I have read that the 3 levels are part of their agreements.

[mike777]

I wonder if you could bid 3s over 2h with hand b to show short spades and extras. Of course that would assume hand b has extras in your style.

[bluecalm]

I wonder if you could bid 3s over 2h with hand b to show short spades and extras.

 

3C alreaady promised spade shortness (5hearts, 4diamonds, 3+clubs), so 3S would be void.

[aguahombre]

3C alreaady promised spade shortness (5hearts, 4diamonds, 3+clubs), so 3S would be void.

You might have misread Mike777. He meant 3S instead of 3C, so there is no "already" involved. The difference between 3S and 3C, might be relevant to his suggestion, since they would both show the spade shortness.

[lalldonn]

Opener's hands:

a)x AQxxx AJxx xxx

b)x AQxxx AKxx xxx

 

Responder's hand:

xxx KJx Qxx AKQx

 

We play 2/1. How do we stop in 4H opposite hand a) and reach 6H opposite hand b).

The problem as I see it is that without nice system you end up in:

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

??? and if you cuebid here with both hands responder still doesn't know which one of the hands you have and has no space to for invites anymore. Also you have very wide range here so I am not sure if any kind of sersious-nonserious solves that problem (as both hands would be rather non serious).

In actual hand we cue-bid but still two hands were possible so I just gambled 6H (either it's very good (or on top) or it's on the finesse).

 

Ideas ?

It's very important to combine some sort of "last train" with serious or non-serious 3NT, which would be the 4D bid in these instances. The basic idea is that when both opening hands call themselves non-serious, the responding hand knows now that he has slam if opener is maximum but not if opener is minimum. It could go like either of these, depending whether they use 3S or 3NT as the non serious slam try when hearts are trumps:

 

If 3S is any non-serious slam try

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

3S - 4C

4H with the first hand and responder will pass, or 4D last train with the second hand and responder will move

 

If 3S shows a spade control and 3NT is any non-serious slam try

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

3S - 3N

4H on the first hand since opener knows slam isn't there if responder is non-serious, or 4D on the second hand since opener knows slam can be there

 

I don't think I can even remember a time that I have been unhappy to have been playing last train, but even if I could I think it has been useful to me literally hundreds of times. The last cue bid below game is much more useful as "I still have interest (sometimes due to having a control you denied with your last bid), but my hand is not good enough to go beyond game on its own" than "I have a control in this suit".

[Cyberyeti]

An extremely old fashioned an often derided bid can work here too.

 

1♥-3N (13-15 3343/3334)

 

first hand bids 4♥, second visualises Axx, KJx, Qxxx, Axx or xxx, KJx, QJxx, AKx where 6♦ is excellent and bids 4♦, this gives responder a chance to gamble that partner doesn't have ♠xxx and bid 5♣ if he wants to, knowledge that partner has no spade control and a hand that would like to cooperate is great news, auction would continue 6♦-6♥. No guarantees but I would say slam is more likely than going off in 5. Our partnership philosophy is to take the risk in that situation, conventional wisdom is to play safe.

[gnasher]

In a situation like this, where you have two completely unlimited hands, Last Train can certainly be very helpful, but on these two pairs of hands I think you can manage without it. Playing non-serious 3NT and cue-bidding, after

...3♥

3NT-4♣

4♦-4♥

opener passes 4♥ with the 11-count, and bids 5♦ with the control-rich 14.

[lalldonn]

In a situation like this, where you have two completely unlimited hands, Last Train can certainly be very helpful, but on these two pairs of hands I think you can manage without it. Playing non-serious 3NT and cue-bidding, after

...3♥

3NT-4♣

4♦-4♥

opener passes 4♥ with the 11-count, and bids 5♦ with the control-rich 14.

You can bid fairly accurately this way, but you will get to the 5 level more often and go down if the breaks are bad.

[kenrexford]

Opener's hands:

a)x AQxxx AJxx xxx

b)x AQxxx AKxx xxx

 

Responder's hand:

xxx KJx Qxx AKQx

 

We play 2/1. How do we stop in 4H opposite hand a) and reach 6H opposite hand b).

The problem as I see it is that without nice system you end up in:

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

??? and if you cuebid here with both hands responder still doesn't know which one of the hands you have and has no space to for invites anymore. Also you have very wide range here so I am not sure if any kind of sersious-nonserious solves that problem (as both hands would be rather non serious).

In actual hand we cue-bid but still two hands were possible so I just gambled 6H (either it's very good (or on top) or it's on the finesse).

 

Ideas ?

 

FWIW, using my methods, the first four bids are the same. Opener then in both situations bids 2♠ (spade control), followed by 2NT from responder (

not two top hearts). The auctions then diverge.

 

 

Opener (A) bypasses 3♣ to deny any of the top three clubs, bypasses 3♦ to deny two of the top three diamonds, but bids 3♥ to show two top hearts.

 

Opener (B) cues 3♦ to show two top diamonds.

 

 

Thus, the major issue is resolved at this point using cues. The rest gets worked out later.

[Fluffy]

Assuming you aptern out and 3♣ must be 3 cards you can bluhmer

 

1♥-2♣

2♦-2♥

3♣-3♠

 

showing nothing in spades and some slam interest

 

this makes hand A) a sing off and hand B) a cuebid. Or a serious/non serious bid. But I admit this is a bit subtle.

[benlessard]

To call

 

xxx KJx Qxx AKQx non serious vs a stiff S is a mistake.

 

You need at least one sort of general strenght slam try (more important that 1 cuebid). I dont think you need both 3NT friv/serious and last train but you really need 1 of them.

 

In a situation like this, where you have two completely unlimited hands, Last Train can certainly be very helpful, but on these two pairs of hands I think you can manage without it. Playing non-serious 3NT and cue-bidding, after

...3♥

3NT-4♣

4♦-4♥

opener passes 4♥ with the 11-count, and bids 5♦ with the control-rich 14.

Agree 100%

[han]

I also think that this hand can be bid well using vanilla 2/1 with good agreements about serious/nonserious. The auction would start:

 

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - ..

 

Now opener has more or less shown his shape and cuebidding starts. I play that 3H by responder is non-serious, perhaps it would be better to use 3D for that purpose but that's not my agreement. Responder does't have a non-serious, so bids 4C, showing no diamond or spade control but a club control. Opener would last train 4D (showing a diamond control plus an ace in either spades or diamonds since responder denied both) and responder bids 4H. Now opener can comfortably pass with hand 1, but should bid on with hand 2. After all, responder has shown serious slam interest and this is quite a nice hand. I think that 5D would be the best continuation.

 

I think you (= bluecalm) committed a serious misevaluation when you said responder was rather non-serious. Responder was very serious, he has extras and his hand fits extremely well.

[han]

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

 

Why does responder need to bid 3H, what does it say? I understand that some would interpret 4C as showing a real club suit, but is that best? Opener has already said a lot about his shape, it seems to me (and I learned this from you) that from now on we should just cuebid. I guess 4C could tell responder that the club queen is a big card, that could be useful.

[lalldonn]

Why does responder need to bid 3H, what does it say? I understand that some would interpret 4C as showing a real club suit, but is that best? Opener has already said a lot about his shape, it seems to me (and I learned this from you) that from now on we should just cuebid. I guess 4C could tell responder that the club queen is a big card, that could be useful.

 

I often have agreements about the difference between bidding 3 of the trump suit or going directly beyond it (such as one allowing a natural 3NT and the other setting up non-serious 3NT). But in this case I have a far better excuse. I was simply continuing with the auction given by the original poster and suggesting how I think it should go if that point has been reached.

[lalldonn]

A lalldonn innovation: First step nonserious over a shape-showing bid that shows 12 known cards in a 2/1 fit auction. So 3D over 3C would be nonserious. 3H would be a serious trump cue, etc.

[lalldonn]

Why does responder need to bid 3H, what does it say? I understand that some would interpret 4C as showing a real club suit, but is that best? Opener has already said a lot about his shape, it seems to me (and I learned this from you) that from now on we should just cuebid. I guess 4C could tell responder that the club queen is a big card, that could be useful.

 

Of course if you do not play lalldonnserious and want to play a straight cuebidding style then 3H would just show a trump cuebid with no diamond control, which is what the 3H bidder has so I saw no reason to complain.

[Siegmund]

Getting out at 4 is going to be hard unless responder has limited his hand and opener decides he is minimum enough to pass.

 

Getting out at 5 - which on the posted cards is a pretty safe spot - ought to be pretty easy for any good cuebidding system, I would think.

[mike777]

Interesting thread. I see most if not all of the expert posters prefer to bid out their shape with 3clbs even with xxx in ths suit rather than start cuebidding over 2h. Then stuff such as serious or nonserious gets discussed with some last train stuff.

 

 

Very interesting to see how the experts approach a problem such as this.

[xxhong]

Vanilla 2/1:

1H 2C

2D 2H

3C 3D

3N(nonserious 3NT) 4H

 

1H 2C

2D 2H

3C 3D

4D(serious cue) 4N(RKC) ...

 

My 2/1:

1H 2C

2D(weakness) 2H(natural, may belong to 3NT, so let's see)

3C(D) 4H(stop)

 

1H 2C

2H(extra, D suit) 2S(2-3 H)

2N(2+C) 3H(3 H)

3S(cue) 4C(cue, even number of KC)

4D(cue) 5C(cue, extra,denies HQ, denies S control)

5D(cue) 6C(cue)

6H pass.

 

 

Opener's hands:

a)x AQxxx AJxx xxx

b)x AQxxx AKxx xxx

 

Responder's hand:

xxx KJx Qxx AKQx

 

We play 2/1. How do we stop in 4H opposite hand a) and reach 6H opposite hand b).

The problem as I see it is that without nice system you end up in:

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

3C - 3H

??? and if you cuebid here with both hands responder still doesn't know which one of the hands you have and has no space to for invites anymore. Also you have very wide range here so I am not sure if any kind of sersious-nonserious solves that problem (as both hands would be rather non serious).

In actual hand we cue-bid but still two hands were possible so I just gambled 6H (either it's very good (or on top) or it's on the finesse).

 

Ideas ?

[ahydra]

If this is 5cM, why not 2NT over 1H?

 

If 4cM 2/1, I guess the meaning of 3H is important. PFA applies so this is showing more than a minimum GF, but I don't see any reason why you can't just go 4H with the first hand and make some sort of cue bid / slam try with the second. Of course, fancy tools like serious 3NT and LTTC aren't bad ideas either, but I'm not sure they're essential.

 

ahydra

[mgoetze]

If this is 5cM, why not 2NT over 1H?

Do I really have to mention that the majority play 2NT as showing a 4-card raise in the Expert-Class Bridge forum? I would expect a much more detailed explanation of why you think (a) it shouldn't show a 4-card raise in general or (b) it should show a 4-card raise but it's good to lie to partner on this particular hand.

[bluecalm]

If this is 5cM, why not 2NT over 1H?

 

Where I live people think that 2N as forcing raise isn't very good use for the bid.

Before you criticize this style take into account that many elite pairs playing 5cM are of similar opinion.

You can see that we are much better off afte 2C here. We could have belong in clubs if partner was 1-5-3-4 we could have belong in 3NT if he was 3-5-4-1. We have learnt about the shape and now the question is how to find our range.

 

. I play that 3H by responder is non-serious

 

I like this. Seems natural according to principle: old suit = weakness, new information/suit = strength

 

I understand that some would interpret 4C as showing a real club suit, but is that best? Opener has already said a lot about his shape, it seems to me (and I learned this from you) that from now on we should just cuebid.

 

We may want to play in clubs I guess, we have shorter fragment and shortness there could be just more tricks in clubs than in hearts (for example if we have 5 top clubs, 4 hearts (without A), Aof spades and A of diamonds we have 12 tricks in clubs and 11 tricks in hearts).

 

1H 2C

2D 2H

3C 3D

4D(serious cue) 4N(RKC) ...

 

Well, responder is in 12-21 (or at least in 12-17) here, I am not sure if nice 13 qualifies as serious try.

 

A lalldonn innovation

 

I like the idea. I would prefer to play:

 

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

2S = any minimum though (and then maybe serious/non serious along the way after learning about shape) because it allows us to just bid game after weak response without inquiring about shape and giving free info. Unfortunately the hand was played in pick-up partnership and we didn't have much of a system for the occasion.

[xxhong]

I think it is a good 13 plus a singleton with 6 losers. If you don't shown any signs of life here, partner may have a difficult time to decide whether to push more with marginal hands that makes a slam. The line I draw here is 15 points (high card points and distribution) to show the serious or non-serious hands (Or 6 losers). Perhaps it is lighter than many others, but not lighter too much.

 

Where I live people think that 2N as forcing raise isn't very good use for the bid.

Before you criticize this style take into account that many elite pairs playing 5cM are of similar opinion.

You can see that we are much better off afte 2C here. We could have belong in clubs if partner was 1-5-3-4 we could have belong in 3NT if he was 3-5-4-1. We have learnt about the shape and now the question is how to find our range.

 

 

 

I like this. Seems natural according to principle: old suit = weakness, new information/suit = strength

 

 

 

We may want to play in clubs I guess, we have shorter fragment and shortness there could be just more tricks in clubs than in hearts (for example if we have 5 top clubs, 4 hearts (without A), Aof spades and A of diamonds we have 12 tricks in clubs and 11 tricks in hearts).

 

 

 

Well, responder is in 12-21 (or at least in 12-17) here, I am not sure if nice 13 qualifies as serious try.

 

 

 

I like the idea. I would prefer to play:

 

1H - 2C

2D - 2H

2S = any minimum though (and then maybe serious/non serious along the way after learning about shape) because it allows us to just bid game after weak response without inquiring about shape and giving free info. Unfortunately the hand was played in pick-up partnership and we didn't have much of a system for the occasion.