What do you open this hand?

[Hanoi5]

Both red, imp pairs, you deal and hold:

 

♠---

♥KQ9xxx

♦A87xx

♣xx

[S2000magic]

I like 1♥: I can bid and rebid the diamonds to describe my shape.

 

The problems with preempting are that partner won't expect this much playing strength and may not put us in game (or slam!) when we belong there, or that we may belong in diamonds instead of hearts (not at all unlikely).

[daveharty]

One of the more sensible "rules" that novices are taught goes something like "Once you preempt, you are done for the remainder of the auction. Partner makes all subsequent decisions." I think it holds true in the vast majority of cases, and I think it wouldn't be bad to recommend a "no exceptions" policy to newcomers.

 

That being said, all such rules do have their exceptions, and I think a good case can be made for opening 2♥ with this hand, planning on freely bidding the diamonds next if the opportunity presents itself. That could go badly but there really isn't a good "standard" way of opening a hand like this. In a standard or 2/1 context, partner will expect a little more defense/less offense for a 1♥ opener. Another option would be to pass and hope to come in later with a "two suited" overcall, but that might not work for several reasons: the auction might not go as you need it to in order to make your planned bid; the auction might be at an uncomfortable level at your next turn; and it gives the opponents the chance to exchange a lot of information before your next turn, which vastly decreases the effectiveness of any preemptive action. So I wouldn't wait.

 

If I was dead-set against opening 2♥ and rebidding diamonds, I would probably open 1♥. I think the hand has too much potential to pass, and opening 3♥ or 4♥ as dealer seems a little random. I would give a lot of thought to opening 4♥ in third seat.

[gwnn]

oops, wrong forum

[mgoetze]

This hand is much too strong for a preempt.

[Cthulhu D]

Open 1H, rebid 2Ds. This has generally worked out for me. The spade void strongly suggests bad things are going to happen if you don't get in now.

[the hog]

The best advice to give a N/B player is to pass this hand and come in later. Sure, when you are a better player and more experienced and know how to deal with light opeings, then open it with whatever takes your fancy. Those advocatiing a 1H opening need to re read the forum title.

[Cthulhu D]

The best advice to give a N/B player is to pass this hand and com in later. Sure, when you are a better player and more experienced and know how to deal with light opeings, then open it with whatever takes your fancy. Those advocatiing a 1H opening need to re read the forum title.

 

I'm a beginner still, clearly, by whatever metric you wish to apply. So with that said, why? If it turns out we have the spades, the two auctions that spring to mind are:

 

1H - 1S;

2D - 2S;

3D - ??? (Pass, 3H, or 3S or maybe a random 3NT punt).

 

And if I pass I get

 

1S - 2H;

2S - 3D;

 

and the same hand is making the same guess, though I guess opener is limited by his initial pass. That's a plus. I play kaplan inversion here so I can stop a bit lower, which is another plus (unless I get the dreaded spade reverse). But far more likely is I get a horror show like:

 

1H - (1S) - 2C - (4S) and who knows what's right. Pass is probably the percentage action, but it's still very ugly. I'm in a better position than if it went Pass - (1S) - 2C - (4S)

[mgoetze]

The best advice to give a N/B player is to pass this hand and com in later. Sure, when you are a better player and more experienced and know how to deal with light opeings, then open it with whatever takes your fancy. Those advocatiing a 1H opening need to re read the forum title.

How will they ever learn if they never try it?

 

Anyway, I don't believe beginners should be taught on HCP alone, certainly not after they have been playing for 2 or 3 months. I think the rule of 20 works well here.

 

The rule of 20 is: add up your HCP and the number of cards in your two longest suits. If the total is 20 or higher, open at the 1-level.

 

For instance in this case, we have 9 HCP, 6 hearts, and 5 diamonds. The total is 20, so we open 1♥.

 

(For beginners I might recommend the rule of 20 for openings of 1 of a major, but require a point more, AKA "rule of 21", for openings of 1 of a minor.)

[the hog]

I'm a beginner still, clearly, by whatever metric you wish to apply. So with that said, why? If it turns out we have the spades, the two auctions that spring to mind are:

 

1H - 1S;

2D - 2S;

3D - ??? (Pass, 3H, or 3S or maybe a random 3NT punt).

 

And if I pass I get

 

1S - 2H;

2S - 3D;

 

and the same hand is making the same guess, though I guess opener is limited by his initial pass. That's a plus. I play kaplan inversion here so I can stop a bit lower, which is another plus (unless I get the dreaded spade reverse). But far more likely is I get a horror show like:

 

1H - (1S) - 2C - (4S) and who knows what's right. Pass is probably the percentage action, but it's still very ugly. I'm in a better position than if it went Pass - (1S) - 2C - (4S)

 

Why? Because after a 1H opening a hand with a 12 count opposite will force to game even if the hand is a total misfit and wonder what went wrong. Had this hand been posted in the Intermediate forum I would have recommended an opening. By the way, you mention Kaplan Inversion in this forum? Haven't you missed the boat? perhaps you want to suggest Wilkosz as well?

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

 

1H is ok, but an advice for a Beginner / Novice is keep sticking to the point count.

 

Understand the point ranges, the requirement for opening bids and so on, and keep the list

of exception, the times you do things different than the general rules says, to a min.

And - Doing well on freaks, and 6-5 hands belong into this category, is also nothing at

the top of the list of things Beginner / Novices should care about.

 

I know, this is boring, not exciting, but works, and is the only way to keep a clear head.

 

Open with a 1 level bid, if you have 12HCP / points, or what ever your lower limit your local

teacher sets. If you have less, pass or open with a preempt.

 

Of course this an over simplification, but unless you know the basic rules in your sleep, you

wont be able to handle the rest.

 

If you got taught to add length points, i.e. a point for a 5th / 6th card in a suit to your

HCP count, and to open if the sum is larger or equal to 12, than by all means do it.

Here this would mean, that you have 9HCP, 3-4 length points, making the total 12-13 points.

And you open with 12 points.

The rule of 20 is just a different phrasing of the above, using different words, introducing

an add. concept.

 

If you use this way of justify an opening bid, than ok. Hopefully you bring up length points on

your own.

 

A good question to ask to an experienced player is:

 

I am a Beginner / Novice, we had a disaster on the following hand.

Do you think the hand has features of interest, that need to interest me now, or did I encouter

a situation that could not be handled with the knowlede of a Beginner / Novice.

And if you get the answer, forget this hand for the time being, than put the hand aside.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[655321]

Pass.

 

1H is ok, but an advice for a Beginner / Novice is keep sticking to the point count.

 

The OP has been posting here for more than 5 years. Hanoi, perhaps in the future you might consider posting your questions in the I/A forum if you want to avoid this sort of answer.

 

This is a perfectly good 1♥ opening, I don't see any point in pretending it is a Pass just because this is the Novice/Beginner Forum.

 

65 is a good shape, the KQ are in the same suit, Aces are very good cards, all your cards are in the long suits which is good, you even have a void. You would not normally open a hand with so few HCP at the 1 level, but this hand is an exception.

[phil_20686]

Virtually all advanced players will open this hand 1H, so it seems right to teach beginners to open these types of hands. HCP are not an ideal metric for distributional hands: To see this note that there are hands where we can make slam here opposite only 4 HCP, if partner has 5 hearts to the ace and a singleton diamond. Of course, such huge fits are very rare. But there are plenty of nondescript hands with three or four hearts where you will want to be in game.

 

When you have extreme distribution, you can open lighter, because distributional hands take more tricks, especially when you have a fit. The downside, of course, is that you risk going for a number with no fit, as you will not take many tricks on power. This is a risk worth taking. With 55 and points in the suits, you should open most ten counts, with 5431 you should open reasonable 11 counts, because 5431 shape plays better than 5332 or 5422.

 

Bridge is a deep and complex game, and I have never thought it wise to hide this complexity from beginners - it just leads to internalising bad habits and rule based approaches imo.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Bridge is a deep and complex game, and I have never thought it wise to hide this complexity from beginners - it just leads to internalising bad habits and rule based approaches imo.

 

#1 Yes, Bridge is fairly complex.

 

#2 "Hiding complexity leads to bad habits and rule based approaches.".

 

This statemt is ok, but heavily depend on the target audience you try to teach.

If you start a physic course (my impression is, that this is your background, I may

be wrong), you dont start with Einstein / relativity theory, you start with Newton,

a simplification.

You start with Euclidian theory, even when the world around us is Not Euclidian, the

point is Euclidian works good enough for most scenarios we encounter in real life.

 

If you come with the whole bunch of points to consider when making certain decisions,

than only the smartest will survive, if they can be bothered.

This is a possible way, and will kepp the game to the elite, but thats it.

But it may well be, that your pubils are smarter than those I encounter, in which case

your approach may well work, and even be best, because they dont get bored.

 

In the end this is something each teacher needs to find out, what is the amount of

complexity to start with.

This is also depend, what the goal, of the peoble is, that start learning the game, what

level do they want to achieve.

Lots of peoble dont want to become world class, they want to learn the game, and want to

avoid the real embarassing things, and have fun.

 

As a closing remark, it may be a good idea, to have a dedicated thread to disuss teaching

strategies, how to aproach teaching the game, what is required complexity for a start and

what not.

Such a thread, would also be approbriate for this new section, maybe we can get some experience

BIL teacher to contribute there experience.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Codo]

Uwe, I like your ideas and your examples, they are great.

 

But if you teach your pupils Forum D (+) or something similar, you can count 12 FL, which is very close to a 1 ♥ opening anyway.

[P_Marlowe]

Uwe, I like your ideas and your examples, they are great.

 

But if you teach your pupils Forum D (+) or something similar, you can count 12 FL, which is very close to a 1 ♥ opening anyway.

Yes - in my first post in this thread, I mentioned, that if you use length points, you come to 12-13FL,

and based on this, you will know, that the hand could be considered an opening bid, and than it would

be ok to open - assuming you use length points.

You could use LTC - "The hand has less than 7 loosers, hence it is an opening bid."

Of course you would have gotten the LTC backwards, but lots of peoble have subscribed to this statement

in the past, ok, why not, maybe add and at least ??? quick tricks, whatever.

 

But of ocurse peoble just read "Pass", "stick to the point count as a beginner / novice", ... and skipp the

rest. I dont mind an opening bid, I dont mind, if someone teaches a method, that says, this is an opening bid.

 

But hopefully they have a consistent teaching plan in place, that lets them explain, why this hand is an

opening bid.

 

But what I read in the posts here, I am heavily in doubt, that this is the case.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I would most likely pass myself, by my partner would open, the hand is on the border,

what we consider an opening bid.

I would pass at my first turn, intending to get in later, this is not an approach I would

ever teach, because it is not a majority appraoch, I know the cons and the pros, I made

up my mind, and will consistenly recheck if I learned something to reconsider.

[Antrax]

P_Marlowe, if a student came to you asking how the world behaves when you're traveling at 0.9c, would you still recommend he use Newtonian physics to keep a clear head? 1-2-3-4 point count is an okay estimate for balanced hands. This question is about a 6-5.

[P_Marlowe]

P_Marlowe, if a student came to you asking how the world behaves when you're traveling at 0.9c, would you still recommend he use Newtonian physics to keep a clear head? 1-2-3-4 point count is an okay estimate for balanced hands. This question is about a 6-5.

If I know the student, and I know he is N/B, than I would say, dont worry, traveling with 0.9c

is not that common, first try to travel with 0. ... 1c.

I may also be able to point out areas, that are more fruitful for his future development than

knowing what to do with the 65 hand.

 

I would expect a good teacher, who is interest in getting his teaching across, to do this.

A good teacher will know, what to adress immediate and what to post pone.

And if he does not do it, he is at best a mediocrite teacher.

 

And maybe, just maybe, I have taught a method that makes this specific hand worth an opening

bid, under the method I introduced, ... and than I would ask what did I teach you?

But maybe the hand does not fit, than I would write the hand down, and come back to the hand

several month later.

 

If he phrases the question different, I may tell him, what

 

#1 would be common/ a majority action

#2 would be a less common/ a minority action

#3 my action

 

and maybe, I may try to explain, the differences.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[the_dude]

IMO you have to pass unless your partnership has agreed that you can open hands like this. Lacking that agreement, partner might really bury you in a variety of ways and be justified in doing so.

 

Come in later with a 2-suited bid, since you are vulnerable (and a passed hand) partner should expect something like this.

 

You certainly can't open 2H with this (way too good, partner will pass with many hands that can make 4H or 5D or more) and opening 3H or 4H in first seat is a little much for me. In third seat I'd have no problem with 3H or 4H if you felt like swinging.

[ahydra]

I'd bid 1H (yes it has only 9 points, but it has two good suits and an easy rebid - also, "6-5 come alive").

 

But I'm more interested in why the world around us is not Euclidean. Last time I checked, if I step forward a certain amount I don't go further by travelling in one direction rather than another!

 

ahydra

[Antrax]

Imagine two points on the surface of the earth. Is there only one way for you to walk from one to the other in a straight line?

[mgoetze]

Imagine two points on the surface of the earth. Is there only one way for you to walk from one to the other in a straight line?

Actually there is likely to be a lot of rock, turf, water or something like that in the way blocking the straight-line path between those points.

[P_Marlowe]

Imagine two points on the surface of the earth. Is there only one way for you to walk from one to the other in a straight line?

Can this discussion be move to the watercooler?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euclidean_geometry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Euclidean_geometry

 

My remark related to 2D geometry.

Euclidian: The sum of the angles in a triangle is 180.

On a sphere this is not the case, I believe the sum is

usually larger than 180, but ... see wikipedia.

[phil_20686]

#1 Yes, Bridge is fairly complex.

 

#2 "Hiding complexity leads to bad habits and rule based approaches.".

 

This statemt is ok, but heavily depend on the target audience you try to teach.

If you start a physic course (my impression is, that this is your background, I may

be wrong), you dont start with Einstein / relativity theory, you start with Newton,

a simplification.

 

 

Sure, but understanding that distributional hands take more tricks than balanced ones is very fundamental to bridge, and is not that complicated.

[phil_20686]

 

But I'm more interested in why the world around us is not Euclidean. Last time I checked, if I step forward a certain amount I don't go further by travelling in one direction rather than another!

 

 

But the question is: Are you pointing in the same direction?